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Post by inkpaduta1981 on Nov 14, 2006 4:25:36 GMT -6
How many Indians died in the Wagon Box Corral Fight? According to Mari Sandoz, George Hyde and Stanley Vestal, the Sioux (and the Cheyennes) had 6 wounded and 6 died warriors. Naturally the estimates of captain Powell and other soldiers are exaggerated.
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 14, 2006 7:45:56 GMT -6
Estimates for dead/wounded Indians are all over the place . . . but the best guess is anywhere from 50-60 killed with 50-120 wounded.
If you have never been to the site, I highly recommend going. I was there back in the '89 and it is beautiful. An open plain with mountains all around.
At the time there was a house right across from the site. Not sure if any more have been added, but it is very symbolic about what the fight for the west was all about.
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Post by inkpaduta1981 on Nov 14, 2006 8:51:56 GMT -6
According to me it is right what Sandz, Vestal and Hyde say: 6 wounded and 6 killed, or perhaps 30 overall.
I'm from Italy, and I hope to visit the USA. ;D
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Post by shatonska on Nov 14, 2006 9:48:34 GMT -6
we need an oglala account to know something more , White Bull can be believed for the minneconjou deads and wounded not for the total numbers , probably
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Post by crzhrs on Nov 14, 2006 10:00:25 GMT -6
The Wagon Box Fight was on Aug. 2, 1 day after the Hay Field Fight. The Sioux went up against soldiers that had rapid fire rifles on Aug 1. They may have realized the same would be true with the soldiers at the Wagon Box Fight and didn't put themselves in a position to take on heavy casualties.
The number of Indian dead is still not known for sure. Estimates range from a low of 6 up to many hundreds (claimed by the military)
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Post by harpskiddie on Nov 14, 2006 15:45:41 GMT -6
There is a nice selection of photos in Blue and Gray Magazine Little Bighorn edition 2006 of the sites of Fetterman, Wagon Box, Hayfiled, Rosebud and, of course, Little Bighorn.
Gordie
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Post by markland on Nov 14, 2006 16:15:41 GMT -6
The Wagon Box Fight was on Aug. 2, 1 day after the Hay Field Fight. The Sioux went up against soldiers that had rapid fire rifles on Aug 1. They may have realized the same would be true with the soldiers at the Wagon Box Fight and didn't put themselves in a position to take on heavy casualties. The number of Indian dead is still not known for sure. Estimates range from a low of 6 up to many hundreds (claimed by the military) Per Col. Carrington's report to the Special Commission, pg. 1, Ft. C. F. Smith was 91 miles from Ft. Phil. Kearny. Too far to have been traveled in less than 20 hours unless someone had two horses to switch back and forth on. Also, the Hayfield was largely Cheyenne with a smattering of Sioux; the Wagon Box was opposite. As I am in a hotel in Silver City, NM, I don't have access to my books but I seem to recall that Red Cloud himself said something to the effect that the Wagon Box fight cost him the cream of his fighting men. So, I will have to side with Capt. Powell's estimate of sixty (I think that is what he reported) dead. Be good, Billy |
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Post by Diane Merkel on Nov 15, 2006 9:09:56 GMT -6
I'm from Italy, and I hope to visit the USA. ;D I hope you visit here soon, inkpaduta! |
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Jimbo
New Member
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Post by Jimbo on Dec 7, 2006 23:40:50 GMT -6
Keep in mind that the troopers in this battle were armed with the new rapid loading 50 cal. model 1866 Springfield breechloading trapdoor Springfield rifle in this battle for the first time and the Indians under Red Cloud were not expecting to encounter such a rapid fire that they had not been previously exposed to in the earlier attacks on the troopers such as the Fetterman battle. Previously Red Cloud's warriors would desend upon the troopers in the first wave taking casualties; but would then send in the second wave immediately after, expecting the troopers would have to take time out to reload the old muzzle loading Springfields used during the Civil War era, but they were met with a withering rapid fire from the new breech loaders causing them great astonishment and loss of life. So, as a result of this mistake, I would expect that the Sioux incurred a pretty high casualty rate compaired to previous attacks. I happen to own a specimen of this particular rifle, inherited from my great grandfather who used it for bear hunting and it was pretty awesome for it's day, for it was the first breech loading Springfield rifle in that era firing a self contained metallic cartridge ( internally primed ) issued to the troopers, rather than loose powder and ball loaded from the muzzle and percussion cap for ignition, and it caused the Indians to drastically change their tactics in forthcoming battles.
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 8, 2006 12:19:59 GMT -6
And those two fights--Wagon Box & Hayfield--were probably the last time Sioux/Cheyenne warriors charged en mass into the barrels of soldiers guns.
After that it was more hit-and-run or counter attacks, which proved very effective at the Rosebud & LBH.
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Jimbo
New Member
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Post by Jimbo on Dec 9, 2006 0:12:20 GMT -6
Crzhrs, When citing to the "Rosebud" are you alluding to the repulse of General Crook's command prior to the Little Big Horn battle? Wasn't the plan by the U.S. Army to have Crook's forces act as the "anvil" and Terry's and Gibbon's forces act as the "Hammer" or in other words: a pincer movement, I think that they call it? Now that I think about it, it seems to me that if the Sioux & Cheyenne knew that they were coming in advance and if so, why did the 7th calvary segment under Reno surprise them when they attacked the south end of the village ? I suppose that if they did know, the Indians wouldn't have left that end of the village undefended, which it must have been, because Gall's family was attacked and killed there, weren't they ? I can't figure that one out.
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Post by elisabeth on Dec 9, 2006 4:42:13 GMT -6
Jimbo,
It is a puzzle, isn't it. The best explanation I've heard (and the funniest) is that they were expecting a surprise attack, and were surprised by an unsurprise one!
There's some evidence from Indian accounts that they knew soldiers were in the area, but they assumed the army would do the usual and attack at dawn the next day; it was the attack in broad daylight that wasn't on their agenda. It's quite a pleasing theory, this, with both sides making lazy assumptions about what the enemy "always" did ...
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 11, 2006 12:01:43 GMT -6
Yes . . . a surprise attack in the middle of the day was a surprise. Some Indian accounts say they knew the whereabouts of Custer's men but the real surprise was Reno's attack.
However, Low Dog stated the village was so large they did not think anyone would attack it. I wonder if that meant anyone who attacked a village that size must be crazy?
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