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Post by grahamew on Sept 30, 2006 3:40:23 GMT -6
Most of you will, I guess, be familiar with Frank Goodyear's book, Red Cloud: Photographs of a Lakota Chief. Here are a few which aren't in the book: Red Cloud and American Horse. Probably one of a series of David Barry photos taken during Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show's stint at Madison Square Gardens in 1897: Another from this series, with a Mr Goodwin standing between RC and AH: A photo by Felix Flying Hawk, taken around 1905: I'm fairly sure I've seen another photo like the one below, which I presume was taken in the early 1900s.
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Post by grahamew on Oct 1, 2006 3:38:58 GMT -6
Years ago, I attended a meeting of the English Westerners in London and Dr Colin Taylor gave a presentation about Sitting Bull, during which he showed a slide of what was ALLEGEDLY a photo of Red Cloud and Sitting Bull together. It was a long time ago, but if memory serves, they were outside some buildings and RC was dressed in a capote, fur hat and trousers, as opposed to leggings. SB was wearing a hat and a robe or blanket wrapped around his lower body and with him were several men stripped for a dance. Quite what date this could've been, I don't remember.
Has anyone else seen this picture?
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Post by buffaloman on Oct 1, 2006 6:06:12 GMT -6
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Post by hans54 on Oct 1, 2006 7:47:35 GMT -6
I am most positive that the man with blanket & fan & hat is NOT Sitting Bull. However, this individual could be ( and I am nearly convinced) He Dog. He obviously had a special liking for fans, ties and hats, as a number of later portraits of him would reveal.
Hans Karkheck
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Post by grahamew on Oct 1, 2006 10:06:54 GMT -6
Thanks. That's it. God only knows where I got the fur hat from, but I guess I thought the white jacket was a capote. I think you're right about the man with the blanket being He Dog. The c1880 date must be wrong. RC is too old and the Trager name suggests early 1890s, the period when RC was beginning to grow his hair longer.
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Post by Dietmar on Oct 3, 2006 14:08:24 GMT -6
This is not Red Cloud but his son Jack in a 1909 photo by german photographer Frederick Weygold. I do like this picture a lot, because you can imagine how Red Cloud must have looked like in his warrior days. Hope you like it too... Dietmar
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Post by grahamew on Oct 3, 2006 16:18:28 GMT -6
When was Weygold active on the reservation, Dietmar?
By the way, have you seen any photos of Jack when he was younger - say, during the 1870s? I have seen one that might be from that era and it looks almost airburshed, or whatever the technique was at that time, but all the others seem to date from later.
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Post by hans54 on Oct 4, 2006 4:53:09 GMT -6
The image of the mounted man, captioned "Chief Red Cloud (Sioux)", does not show Jack, but James Red Cloud, Jack's son (I guess late 1920s / 1930s).
Hans Karkheck
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Post by ephriam on Oct 4, 2006 7:16:44 GMT -6
According to Goodyear's book on Red Cloud's portraits, Frederick Weygold visited the Pine Ridge Reservation in July 1909.
Gus Trager was active in Crawford and Chadron, Nebraska, from 1889 to 1892. Incidentally, this photographer's name was never George, despite its publication in recent articles that way. I have tracked him through hundreds of documents, including newspaper accounts, county records, census records, etc. Not once is he ever referred to as George -- always as Gustavaus or Gus.
ephriam
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Post by buffaloman on Oct 4, 2006 7:52:39 GMT -6
Hans-
The Weygold photos you sent me scans of a few years ago had a 1909 date. These included images of Black Heart, Flat Iron, George Sword, Rocky Bear, Standing Soldier, Shot In The Eye and Short Bull.
There are four photos on SIRIS by De Lancey Gill dated 1913 and I can think of number of others of a man identified as Jack Red Cloud wearing the same shirt in the photo Dietmar sent.
He Dog seems a likely identification of the blanketed man in the Trager photo.
Dietmar- Is the photo you sent a scan from the German book mostly about sign language and illustrated with Weygold photos? I've forgotten the title. Anyone know where I can get a copy? My brother found a copy years ago in Santa Fe.
-Bob
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Post by grahamew on Oct 4, 2006 9:48:11 GMT -6
Thanks for that, Hans.
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Post by Dietmar on Oct 4, 2006 10:07:05 GMT -6
Grahame, I think the earliest photo of Jack is in "Eyewitness at Wounded Knee" by Jensen. Am I right?
Hans, where did you get this information from? The book about Weygold I have states it is Jack. There are other photos of Jack where he wears the same war shirt (by the way the same shirt old Red Cloud is wearing in one of his last photos). Are there other photos of James Red Cloud as a reference?
Bob, yes, it´s a german book:
Wolfgang Haberland: "Ich, Dakota" - Pine Ridge Reservation 1909, Photographien von Frederick Weygold, Dietrich Reimer Verlag (publisher), ISBN 3-496-01038-X
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Post by grahamew on Oct 4, 2006 12:11:00 GMT -6
Dietmar, Just looking at that now. That's the one I meant; it looks touched up. He would be around 32 (although he looks younger). I wonder if there are any earlier photos. The Weygold photo of Short Bull in a ghost shirt (see the Kicking Bear photo thread) is dated c.1909. Is this Red Cloud? Jack Red Cloud? He wasn't sent to Fort Sheridan after the Ghost Dance, was he?
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Post by hans54 on Oct 4, 2006 13:30:42 GMT -6
Bob,
Yes, all those photos you mentioned were taken by Weygold in 1909, when he was on Pine Ridge for the Hamburg Völkerkunde Museum.
Dietmar,
Don't beat me - you got me wrong. Yours is of course a 1909 Weygold portrait of Jack Red Cloud! I have been referring to that other picture of a rider (posted by Graham), the one with the caption cited by me: James Red Cloud.
Graham,
Most interesting photo of the alleged Red Cloud. It really might be him. If we only could see more details of his coat. Seems to be one beaded with pictographs, and I know at least two images of Red Cloud wearing this type of garment. Anyhow -great portrait. Thanks a lot.
Hans Karkheck
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Post by Dietmar on Oct 4, 2006 13:46:13 GMT -6
Grahame and Hans, I´m with you, looks very much like Red Cloud, although the coat in all the Bratley photographs in Goodyear´s book looks darker. Sorry, Hans, for the misunderstanding... I should read more carefully after a long day of work.
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