He Dog Interviews

[Diane Merkel]

Does anyone know what happened to the He Dog Interviews that were in the archives of wintercount.org? I keep getting an error message for that server. The interviews were:

Interview with He Dog, Oglala, S.D. July 7, 1930
(Thomas White Cow Killer, Interpreter)

Interview with He Dog, at Oglala S.D. July 13th, 1930
(Interpreter, John Colhoff)

Interview with He Dog, Oglala, SD, July 7, 1930
(Interpreter, Thomas White Cow Killer)

Interview with He Dog, Oglala, SD July 13, 1930
(Remembrances of Crazy Horse)

The only other site Google brought up had links to the same interviews at wintercount.org. Is there another online source?

Thanks,
Diane

[kahli846]

I ran in to the same problem. Eventually got them from Questia in the Nebraska War Reader.

[Diane Merkel]

Thanks. I was hoping to find a free source so that I could continue to link to them in my website listing for He Dog. I guess the free ride is over!

[kahli846]

If you can give me an address I will be happy to copy them and send it to you.
DeAnn

[Diane Merkel]

DeAnn, thank you for your offer, but I remembered that there is a way to find old web pages. I was able to access the interviews by using Wayback (www.archive.org). Here's the link to the index of all of the interviews they had on wintercount.org about Crazy Horse:

tinyurl.com/z3d2m

I was able to copy each interview, except the second one, into Word.

Thanks again for your kind offer!

Diane

[shatonska]

that's the missing page

Oglala Sources on the Life of Crazy Horse. Interviews given to Eleanor H. Hinhan. "The young Oglala war leader Crazy Horse (Tasunke-Witko) was the soul of the Indian defense of the Black Hills in 1876, of which Sitting Bull was the voice. This was recognized by Gen. Phillip H. Sheridan in his Report to the Secretary of War for 1876. More recently, the military gifts and the patriotic motives of Crazy Horse have been enthusiastically acknowledged by white historians notable among them PE Bryne, John Neihardt, and Grace Hebard. These interviews are as nearly as exact as they were translated by the interpreter, being written up each evening from notes taken at the interview. He Dog (Sunka Bloka) is the last surviving representative of the Oglala grand councilors. These were appointive Chiefs of the highest rank, officially known as "owners of the tribe" or "supreme head men" (wicasa yatapika). As these titles proved too heavy for Oglala democracy, these functionaries wore popularly nicknamed "shirt wearers" because of a particular type of ceremonial shirt they wore as a robe of office. Red Cloud and Crazy Horse were among these "shirt wearers" together with the other chiefs, less known to the white people, whom He Dog names in his narrative. Although a nephew of Red Cloud, He Dog sided with Crazy Horse in the fighting of 1876, and he and his brothers took a very active part in several of the battles at Ft. Robinson on May 7, 1877. When the court of Indian Offenses was established upon Pine Ridge reservation in the nineties, He Dog was made a Judge of it. He served in this capacity for many years until his advanced age and failing sight made further service impossible. At present he lives near the town of Oglala with his great-niece, upon whose family he is dependent. In spite of his ninety-two years and their infirmities, He Dog is possessed of a remarkable memory. He is the living depository of Oglala tribal history and old time customs. Anyone digging very deeply into these subjects with other old timers is likely to be referred to him: "He Dog will remember about that." In interviewing He Dog one can hardly fail to be impressed with his strong historical sense and with the moderation and carefulness of his statements. Two long interviews with He Dog are presented here. The Third, dealing with the battles of the Sioux war of 1876, is not reproduced for the following reason. Shortly after the interview of July 7, 1920, He Dog was told by a young Indian that the interviewer was very likely a government spy hoping to lure the old timers into admissions of depredations alleged to have been committed during the war of 1876. The claims of the Sioux nation against the United States government for compensation for the taking of the Black Hills are pending in the United States Court of Claims and the Indians were expecting an early hearing upon them. It appears that a counterclaim has been filed charging damages against the Sioux for all soldiers and civilians killed and property damaged during the war. On this account the old chief was advised not to talk too freely with us for fear his words might be twisted into evidence in support of this counter claim. Unfortunately, the next interview, on July 10, dealt with the war of 1876, and He Dog's statements were so extremely guarded as to add practically nothing to what is already known of this fighting. For Example, here is a specimen: Question: About how many fighting men were there with you and Crazy Horse at the Battle of the Rosebud? Answer: In the old days we did not stop to count whether there were two of us, or whether there were two thousand. We just went ahead and fought. Accordingly this interview is omitted. The misunderstanding was straightened out, thanks to the help of Mr. John Colhodd and to He Dog's own fair mindedness. But the interviewer thereafter confined her questions to the personal biography of Crazy Horse. It was feared that the existing situation might color any accounts given of the war of 1876. Later, He Dog's brother, Short Buffalo volunteered a brief but comprehensive account from the Oglala point of view, which is presented. Red Feather was the youngest brother of Crazy Horse's first wife. He was a member of Crazy Horse's band during the fighting of 1876 and up to that Chief's death. At this time he was one of the younger men. Later on he became a prominent figure upon the reservation and used his influence to support the government authorities during the unrest of 1888 to 1890. He became a Catholic and attends mass three times a week at the Holy Rosary Mission. His friendship with the Fathers at this mission and his relations with the agency have brought him into frequent contact with white people. He receives a government pension. Red Feather has the reputation of being a skillful diplomat and a shrewd judge of character. He lost a leg through blood poisoning a few years ago while in the agency hospital and this experience may help to account for the poor opinion of physicians revealed in one of his observations. Red Feather and He Dog had apparently had differences of a personal nature over a matter of historical fact, and each of them wanted us to be skeptical of the other. In spite of these warnings, the actual disagreements between their narratives are not greater than one would expect to find between witnesses of events which took place more than fifty years ago. Short Buffalo (Tatanka Ptecila) is the youngest brother of He Dog and shares the remarkable memory which seems to be a family characteristic. The name is very commonly translated Short Bull, but is rendered Short Buffalo here to escape confusion with the Brule medicine man of Ghost Dance fame. Anyone who will take the pains to compare his account of the John Brughier incident or of the surrender of Crazy Horse with the accounts by white officers published thirty five years or more ago will be struck by Short Buffalo's accuracy after so many years. None of the men interviewed had any means of access to the published accounts. In certain other instances, Short Buffalo's version of events differs sharply from the published accounts but in such a way as to suggest that the Indian version deserves at least consideration. Short Buffalo was in his early twenties at the time of the events described here. The question of the attitude of He Dog and Short Buffalo toward their uncle, Red Cloud may be of some interest in evaluating their testimony, in view of the accusations made by Dr. V.T. McGillicuddy and others that the rumors of treachery on the part of Crazy Horse originated with the Red Cloud party. Both the men quoted here maintained a policy independent from that of their celebrated uncle. Short Buffalo's personal attitude is reflected in a statement made to Miss Helen Blish about a year (July 23, 1929) before this in an interview on the subject of Oglala Chief's societies: "Red Cloud was never a Short Hair (ie, a member of the Pekin Pte Pte Cela or Han Skaska, a certain Oglala society of Chiefs). Those whose prowess and battle accomplishments and characters were undisputed were feasted and honored. He Dog and Short Buffalo were so honored many times while Red Cloud was not, although he was a chief. Mrs. Carrie Slow Bear is a daughter of Red Cloud. She was not an eyewitness of the events she describes, although she was upon the reservation at the time. Her Father and husband were eye witnesses. When the opportunity to interview her presented itself it was snatched at. Her narrative represents the version of the story current in the Red Cloud Family. White Calf was a government scout at Ft. Robinson during the year 1876. He was a witness of the stabbing of Crazy Horse. He did not know the Chief personally at all well. His family and political connections were with the Red Cloud band. He was 23 or 24 years old at the time of the events narrated. Little Killer was connected with Crazy Horse by marriage, being the younger brother of the man (Club Man) who married Crazy Horse's older sister. He was a member of Crazy Horse's band and a personal admirer, as his narrative testifies. He is approximately the same age as Short Buffalo and White Calf. All the persons interviewed here, except Red Feather, are either relatives of Red Cloud or close neighbors of relatives of Red Cloud. After the interview with Mrs. Slow Bear, the Red Cloud connection appeared to take a certain interest in the movements of the interviewer, and members of it were present at the interviews with Short Buffalo and Little Killer. When this series was completed, the interviewer drove up to Manderson S.D. where the few surviving blood relatives of Crazy Horse live. But their testimony could not be obtained. Luke Little Hawk, approached by John Colhoff on behalf of the interviewer, replied, in effect, that no questions had been asked about Crazy Horse at the time of his death, and he did not care to answer any now. Black Elk said he felt he ought to be paid for telling us the biography of Crazy Horse (he suggested a rate of two cents a word) and that it would require about two weeks. This was taken to be another form of refusal. The interpreter, Emil Afraid-of-Hawk, told us that Crazy Horse's relatives had repeatedly refused to make any statement about him to white people or indeed to Indians of the opposite faction. Some points not brought out in the interviews were added by our interpreters. It was one of them, T.W. C. Killer, who told us the character he had heard given the informer Woman Dress when the Indians are talking among themselves: "He was like a two edged sword against his own people." Mr. Killer was asked why our informants evaded the questions we asked them about Woman Dress: "But that is the way with our People. We don't like to say anything against one of ourselves to someone from outside." Another interpreter, Samuel Stands, became so much interested that he went of his own initiative to "an old timer" (whose name he would not tell us) and asked some questions of his own. The old man's reply, as quoted by Mr. Stands was, "I'm not telling anyone, white or Indian, what I know about the killing of Crazy Horse. That affair was a disgrace, and a dirty shame. We killed our own man." This remark is quoted to illustrate the difficulties of getting to the bottom of the problems involved, and not to exculpate the white officers, who asked no questions at the time when questions were in order. With the possible exception of Red Feather, the Indians seem to have been as unaware of what went on among the white men at the fort and the Spotted Tail agency outside their immediate range of observation as the white men were unaware of the alarms and rivalries among the Indians. For example, all the Indians interviewed say that Crazy Horse was brought back under arrest from the Spotted Tail agency, when General (then Captain) Jesse R. Lee, who brought him back, says that he came back voluntarily, upon the pledge that he would be heard. Dr. V.T. McGillycuddy was assistant Post Surgeon at Ft. Robinson in the summer of 1877 and later (1879-1886) agent at the Pine Ridge Indian Agency.
Letter from Dr. V.T. McGillycuddy to Eleanor H. Hinman Interview Date of May 6, 1930 Question: When and how did you first meet Crazy Horse and what were your first impressions of him? Answer: I first met or become distantly acquainted with Crazy Horse at the Battle of the Rosebud, June 17, 1876, eight days before the Custer fight, when he attacked Gen. Crook's command of 1,100 with his 3,000 warriors in which command I was surgeon of the 2nd U.S. Cavalry and in September following when he again attacked Crook's command at the Battle of Slim Buttes on our starvation march to the Black Hills, after the Custer battle. From my observation of his leadership and tactics employed in these two battles and from the close association and friendship established between us after his surrender at Ft. Robinson early in May, 1877, I could not but regard him as the greatest leader of his people in modern times. He was but thirty-six. In him everything was made secondary to patriotism and love of his people. Modest, fearless, a mystic, a believer in destiny, and much of a recluse, he was held in veneration and admiration by the youngest warriors, who would follow him anywhere. These qualities made him a danger to the government and he become persona non grata to evolution and to the progress of the white man's civilization, Hence his early death was preordained. At about eleven p.m. that night in the gloomy old adjutant's office, as his life was fast ebbing, the bugler on the parade ground wailed out the lonesome call for Taps, "Lights out, go to sleep!" It brought back to him the old battles; he struggled to arise, and there came from his lips his old rallying cry, "A good day to fight, a good day to die! Brave hearts...." and his voice ceased, the lights went out and the last sleep came. It was a scene never to be forgotten, an Indian epic. Question: You speak in your article in the Nebraska History Magazine of last December and also in your official report of 1879, of the jealousy and resentment felt toward Crazy Horse by Red Cloud and possibly (although he is not named) by Spotted Tail. Have you any idea at what date this hostility began to take active shape? Spotted Tail and Red Cloud had both seemed to play a friendly role in helping to negotiate Crazy Horse's peaceful surrender the preceding spring and in allaying the suspicions felt by the officers when he was so slow about coming in to the fort. If at that time they had wanted to do him an injury they had an excellent opportunity, but did not take it. What had happened between May and September to make them change their minds? Answer: While the Custer battle, or massacre as it is termed, was a great victory for the Sioux, preceded as it was by the Battle of the Rosebud, it was a victory but temporary, ending in the scattering of the Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse forces and the retreat of the bulk of the hostiles under Sitting Bull into British America for food and shelter, for the United States troops were increasing in numbers and in extent of country. The leaders of the Sioux, including Red Cloud and Spotted Tail, were forced to a realization that they had made their "last stand" and that the time had come for a final and lasting peace. Hence these two chiefs turned in honestly, and assisted in every way to bring about that peace. Spotted Tail and Red Cloud, however, did not realize or anticipate the "hero worship" that always follows the return to his people of a successful great military leader, which Crazy Horse had developed into. Hence the jealousy. Spotted Tail, more of a diplomat, did not show it so much. In the fall of 1876 there was held in Washington a peace conference between the President and the leading agency chiefs of the several Sioux agencies. Present were Spotted Tail, Red CLoud and Gen. Crook. In this meeting Crook practically ignored Red Cloud as untrustworthy and threw his weight to Chief Spotted Tail. The following spring, early in May, Crazy Horse after many months of solicitation from Gen. Crook came in with his people and surrendered at Ft. Robinson and entered into a solemn peace treaty with Crook to abstain from all war for the future. He intended to and did keep the promises entered into, subsequent reports to the contrary notwithstanding. Gen. George Crook, Department Commander, made a brilliant record in the Civil War, and had become a past master in his dealings with the Indians. He studied and became thoroughly acquainted with their nature, psychology, view points, and so forth and enjoyed their confidence. From the British line south to the Mexican border, they trusted the "gray Fox", and he never betrayed that confidence. In the South he had met marked success in overcoming Geronimo and his Apaches. In Crazy Horse however he had a different problem to deal with, an Indian leader who had established his military leadership at the Battle of the Rosebud, and eight days later at the Battle of the Little BIg Horn. Crazy Horse was the "Stormy Patrol" of the Great Plains, idolized by the young fighting element of the Sioux and Cheyennes, thousands in number. He asked not toleration, sufferance, or protection from the white man. He was willing to agree to a treaty of peace, and did so. But he retained a right to a free life on his hunting grounds, and to live on the game, instead of the beef of the white man. These things were his heritage from the Great Spirit, given to his people ages before the coming of the white man. To solve the problem, the General contemplated supplanting Red Cloud, who was an old confirmed reactionary and opposed to civilization, by having Crazy Horse made head Chief of the Oglalas. But the inactivity of agency life palled on the young Indian leader. He was not intended to lead his young fighting men into the paths of civilization, but preferred the free hunting life which he claimed as his right. He did not however contemplate again going on the war path, unless attacked. He was a free-born, aboriginal leader, neither a politician nor a diplomat. Letter from Dr. V.T. McGillycuddy, Physician who attended Crazy Horse at Ft. Robinson on Sept 5, 1877 and later was an Supt. at the Indian Agency. Dated January 30, 1920 To: Addison E. Sheldon, Supt. From: V.T. McGillycuddy Hotel Claremont Berkeley, California January 30, 1930 Dear Sir: His death was one of the most pitiable and I may say inexcusable of the many I had to witness in my long career on the old frontier and brought back to me my friend Mark Twain's comment on the landing of our Pilgrim Fathers, "They were a good God fearing people and when they landed that day at Plymouth Rock from off the Mayflower, they fell upon their knees and thanked Almighty God, for the many blessings he had vouchsafed them that day, in enabling them to reach a land of liberty and free thought. Later on, they fell upon the aborigines." Regarding the photograph which I return herewith, I regret to have to state that it is not of Crazy Horse, for he was much of a mystic and superstitious and positively refused to pose and he living before the days of the quick acting kodak, it became impossible to snap one of him. This picture was faked some time, after his death, and is of a Brule Sioux, of Spotted Tails agency. Mrs. McG has been for some time writing up my "reminiscences, and has reached 340 pages, but what to do with it will be a question, for I am getting old (in years) eighty one next month. I regret Jim Dahlmans death, he was a unique character of the old East. Yours truly, /s/ V.T. McGiddycuddy

[Diane Merkel]

Got it. Thank you VERY much, shatonska!