unknown indian group photo at ebay

[Dietmar]

There is a very interesting and rare group photo of an indian delegation offered at ebay:

cgi.ebay.com/Ft-Orb-Nebraska-Indian-Treaty-CDV-Photograph_W0QQitemZ6270541845QQcategoryZ409QQtcZphotoQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The identification of the indians is unknown, the seller guessed it could be Southern Sioux or Pawnee, but it seems to me that it could be made at some treaty negotiations (maybe at an agency) between the Sioux and Ponca. The indians in the back row look like Sioux, the men in the front row like Ponca. I assume the second person sitting from right (with a bearclaw necklace) is Standing Bear, the principal chief of the Ponca.

Can anyone identify some of the Sioux?

Thank you
Dietmar

[grahamew]

Great photo - and you know where's the one, there must have been others.
However, surely Fort Ord was in California and Camp Ord was In Arizona. Ord is in Nebraska and near a Fort Hartsuff

[shan]

Not sure if the Indian with the bear claw necklace is Standing Bear the Ponca, he looks as if he may be a Pawnee whose hair has grown out. This is certainly a strange group, the men at the back could be Sioux or Cheyenne, but the ones seated with what appear to be bandanas, whilst they don't look like Navahoes or Apaches, don't look like Plains Indians either. I would guess that this is a fairly early photograph from the look and dress of the white man at the back, pre- 1865?

I read somewhere in one of the treads last week, that Edgerly reported seeing men running towards the river, men he initially thought were Indians, but later thought may have been some of Custers men. I can't seem to find the thread I read it in, if the writer happens to read this, could he or she tell me where they got that information from? I must say have never heard of that report before.

Shan

[Dietmar]

If the treaty ground was indeed Ord in Nebraska near the Loup River it would speak more for Pawnee indians in the front row.
I still see a resemblance to Standing Bear, but I could be wrong...

[grahamew]

The 'bandana' turban was quite common amongst tribes on the eastern edges of the Plains - and among the Eastern Sioux

[Dietmar]

The more I look at it the photograph reminds me of pictures by Stanley J. Morrow, who often used blockhouses as background for his photo setting.
If you can, please compare the photo with illustrations by Morrow in “Frontier Photographer” by Hurt/Lass, especially the Standing Bear portrait (with bearclaw necklace and short hair) and portraits of Ponca halfbreeds, who look very similar to the men in the front row (incl. bandana turban).

Dietmar

[shan]

Dietmar,

Unfortunately I haven't got access to the book you mention, can you post any of the photos? Around what date do you think the e-bay photo was taken?
Shan

[Dietmar]

Stanley J. Morrow moved to the Dakota frontier in 1868. For the next fifteen years he was active as a photographer, most of his photographs were produced in the 1870s.
In my opinion the ebay photo could be made in this period.

Here are some of the said Morrow photos:

Standing Bear, Ponca chief


Antone, chief of the Ponca half-breeds


unknown Ponca warrior


Big Breast Plate, Sioux



(from Wesley Hurt/William Lass: "Frontier Photographer - Stanley J. Morrow Dakota Years" University of Nebraska Press and University of South Dakota, 1956)

[shan]

Dietmar,

thanks for posting the photos, I can see that I was wrong in thinking that the man in the e-bay photo wasn't Standing Bear the Ponca chief, the resemblance is clear, I would even hazard a guess that he is about the same age in the two photos, in which case they may have been taken around the same time.
I am still not convinced about the bandanas though, those in the e-bay photo seem to be a different type to those worn by the Poncas you posted, it's nit picking I know, and I could wrong again,
Shan