Crazy Horse and the Winkte name

[Jimmy Joe Meeker]

I've read in several places (not necessarily reputable ones) that Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull were given winkte names, that both had winkte 'wives' and that the former is, apparently, one of the most famous gays in history (see home.earthlink.net/~globalage1/id77.html.) Any truth?

[Jimmy Joe Meeker]

Not to put down the importance of the winkte in Lakota society or to slight gays in general, but while I can appreciate the gay lobby's (as it were) need to co-opt some heroic figures, surely one of the white observers who visited these two would've commented on the fact - and that's without all the Indian testimony that the likes of Campbell, Hinman and Sandoz took. One theory I've read claims it stems from the passage in Black Elk Speaks where BE refers to CH as behaving in a 'queer' manner, where he clearly means he behaved in a strange, perhaps mystic, manner. Any thoughts?

[El Crab]

Queer certainly had a different connotation back in the day. I'd say its likely that was the case in deciding Crazy Horse was gay.

[crzhrs]

Don't be mislead by Indian words being interpreted into English. Crazy or Queer probably meant magical or mystical. CH was also known as "Our Strange Man" because of his quite behavior and not saying very much. CH was married at least twice and had an "affair" with Black Buffalo Woman, which caused the No Water trouble, resulting in NW shooting CH. Crazy Horse later "married" a French-Cheyenne woman, Nellie Laravie.

There was a well-known gay Indian by the name of Woman's Dress who was part of Red Cloud's band. Woman's Dress, as well as a number of RC's people had a grudge with CH and his clan, which contributed to CH's death in 1877.

Crazy Horse was a mystic warrior and may not have had a "need" for woman as we know it. He was a loner and kept to himself, but undoubtedly was highly thought of and had a large following. He Dog, CH's closest friend lived into his 90s, (died in 1933) and continually spoke in high regard of CH. I have not read of any mention by anyone, white or red, regarding CH's sexual persuasion as being anything but "normal."

[Grahame Wood]

I think there's considerable doubt as to whether Woman's Dress was a winkte. In the photos I've seen, he's wearing male clothing. He may even have had his own small band. I know I've read something recently - but I can't remember where (possibly Ostler) - that the name was given after he took part in a raid against the Snakes and all he returned with was a woman's dress.

I've read in one book on Native American and homosexuality that CH had a winkte wife, but from the other stuff I read, I suspect the writer had an agenda. I checked the for the source of the info and it just referred to 'Lakota informant', which makes me kind of suspicious. I can't help but think the wider interest in the sexual side of Lakota mysticism came about with the publication of Hanta Yo and some of the passages in there (even though it received a lot of negative criticism from whites and Indians, academic and otherwise). I suspect the argument runs something like this: Crazy Horse was a mystic, therefore he had to undergo a sexualised 'ceremony' with a winkte, and in turn, this means he was gay. Or you could be right, it was down to the misunderstood Black Elk statement. Or he had two wives a liaison with Black Buffalo Woman and a winkte wife which informants haven't widely mentioned!

[Grahame Wood]

Did being a winkte wife necessarily mean a sexual relationship? Was the 'male' partner in a winkte relationship, therefore, homo- (or bi-) sexual? I've read that one winkte didn't marry another; one partner had to be defined, somehow or other, as 'male' and that a man could take a winkte wife as well as female wives. I still feel someone would've pointed this out about CH and SB - it's not as if they weren't under a certain amount of scrutiny, after all. I know there are a couple of experts well-versed in CH on this board, so maybe they can help.

[El Crab]

crzhrs said:

Don't be mislead by Indian words being interpreted into English. Crazy or Queer probably meant magical or mystical. CH was also known as "Our Strange Man" because of his quite behavior and not saying very much. CH was married at least twice and had an "affair" with Black Buffalo Woman, which caused the No Water trouble, resulting in NW shooting CH. Crazy Horse later "married" a French-Cheyenne woman, Nellie Laravie.

There was a well-known gay Indian by the name of Woman's Dress who was part of Red Cloud's band. Woman's Dress, as well as a number of RC's people had a grudge with CH and his clan, which contributed to CH's death in 1877.

Crazy Horse was a mystic warrior and may not have had a "need" for woman as we know it. He was a loner and kept to himself, but undoubtedly was highly thought of and had a large following. He Dog, CH's closest friend lived into his 90s, (died in 1933) and continually spoke in high regard of CH. I have not read of any mention by anyone, white or red, regarding CH's sexual persuasion as being anything but "normal."

Crazy meant something closer to "horny" or "randy", not queer or strange. Or so I've heard.

[kingsleybray]

Dear Group

It's time to lay to rest the frequent assumption that Woman Dress was a winkte: this hoary old factoid has no relation to truth. Pine Ridge showman and interpreter Eddie Herman told my friend Joseph Balmer sixty years ago that Woman Dress's mother was a wife of Oglala chief Smoke, and a famous craftswoman in quill and beadwork. So fancy was the boy's outfit that he was dubbed Woman Dress . . . well, maybe, but he wasn't a winkte, being an enlisted scout for a number of years, photographed several times in 'normal' male attire, fathering a large family. Ambrose, I think, was the first author to make the unmerited assumption of WD's winkte status, since when it seems to have accepted as self-evident.

He Dog's interview with Hinman is careful in identifying Crazy Horse's three wives - all female. In my own research in the Lakota community I've come across tales of Crazy Horse's love life - there seem to have been several affairs with married women beside the famous Black Buffalo Woman. There's nothing to indicate any homosexual relationship. "Absence of evidence"? maybe, but without evidence we can't go any further in reconstructing the sexual life of the Oglala war chief! Red Cloud agent Irwin's reaction to first meeting Crazy Horse in the summer of 1877? "A bashful girlish looking boy"!

Kingsley Bray

[Grahame Wood]

Interesting. Really looking forward to the book. Didn't he fall out with Little Big Man over a woman?

[crzhrs]

Woman's Dress was called Pretty Boy as a child. So, he may have had feminine features, or if we take the name figuratively, it may have meant in our word "gay." According to Marie Sandoz's biography of Crazy Horse, Woman's Dress always stayed behind when the young warriors went on raids, mostly because of his unwillingness to fight. He was not looked down upon as other cultures do because he was "un-manly" male.

Woman's Dress was part of Red Cloud's clan and was involved in the conspiracy to spread false rumors about Crazy Horse once on the reservation. The jealousies and threat of loss of power by reservation chiefs resulted in Crazy's Horse's death.

If anyone has seen the TNT version of Crazy Horse, you would have seen Woman Dress portrayed as feminine, gossipy, and wearing woman-like clothing.

[crzhrs]

<Interesting. Really looking forward to the book. Didn't he fall out with Little Big Man over a woman?>

The Indian you speak of was No Water. He was the wife of Black Shawl, who always had the hots for Crazy Horse. Everyone thought CH and BS would marry, but when CH went on a raid, No Water stayed behind, claiming he had a toothache, then somehow managed to marry Black Shawl.

BS was not happy over the affair and threw No Water out, which was legal in Sioux custom. She then went to Crazy Horse and they became "involved." No Water heard about it, burst into their tepee and shot CH in the cheek. CH was humilated and lost his status as a shirt wearer.

Eventually No Water ended up as a spy during CH's reservation days and was part of the conspiracy to get rid of Crazy Horse.

[Grahame Wood]

No, this was a later incident; if not at the agency, then shortly before the surrender. I think it's in the Hardorff book on the death of CH.

[Grahame Wood]

The clothing Woman's Dress wears in the existant photos is not feminine, however, and he doesn't seem notably feminine or 'pretty' in his features. The fact that he served as a scout suggests that he wasn't restricted to feminine duties. I suspect Ambrose has stretched Sandoz' interpretation somewhat on this.

[Scout]

Ambrose was not known for his research abilities...a lot of it was 'shoot from the hip' stuff. I think Sandoz is another one whose work should be looked at cloesly. There is so much quoted dialogue in her writings that, to me, is suspect. And as far as Woman's Dress is concerned, today's revisionist will not be satisfied until half of all of histories great men and women are 'found to be gay.' absolute BS.

[Donnerlieschen]

Winkte is not a homosexual issue; Certainly not in the way that we understand homosexuality today. Taking a wintke as a second or third wife would not make the "husband" gay in the eyes of Lakota culturel. Winkte were very good at gaining status and welath so sometimes this union was simply about "marrying up" so to speak. But even if it were about sex this contact was not looked at as beign a "homosexual" thing. What Lame Deer says is that winkte names were very much sought after by the parents because of the mystical power that came with them. An important thing to understand about the winkte is that their spirit was considered female as much as a bio-women's spirit was. Becuase they could not have babies they would not be a first choice for a wife. But because they could offer other skills to the family they were sought as a second of third wife. Also: the winkte tradition was honored but the individual who claimed that tradition didn't always live up to that tradition. You have to walk the talk in other words.