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Post by kingsleybray on Aug 22, 2005 1:30:07 GMT -6
Just read your new message, Glenbow! Back to the drawing board! - Kingsley
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Post by Grahame Wood on Aug 22, 2005 5:58:08 GMT -6
A while ago I did some research into Rain and while I can't yet pinpoint the source (DeCost Smith?), I have one of his brothers as Iron Horn or Iron Horse, a band chief. I'm also fairly sure that DeCost Smith claims Shave Head was another, but I'll check on this later.
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Post by kingsleybray on Aug 22, 2005 14:38:35 GMT -6
I've worked through my Waggoner notes and thought I'd post the band identifications of certain Hunkpapa individuals. All statements from Waggoner:
Bear Face, 1830-1915: head chief of Ceyorwa band. He talked with Miles October 1876 under flag of truce with Crow Feather and Charging Thunder.
Bone Club, 1842-1928: with Sitting Bull in Canada, belonged to Wakpokinyan band [Miniconjou, band of Lone Horn and Touch the Clouds - KMB], which settled at Standing Rock 15 miles from mouth of Grand River. This band raised good horses and cattle, farmed a little in good years.
Spotted Horn Bull: belonged to Talonapin, Fresh Meat Necklace band
Gall: belonged to Kangiska, White Crow band.
Kingsley
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Post by Ephriam Dickson on Aug 23, 2005 8:33:42 GMT -6
Still double-checking all the newly posted details against the Standing Rock Agency census records. Here is what I have for:
SPOTTED HORN BULL Tatanka He Gleska (c1836-1890). Wife: Pretty White Buffalo (Ptesan Waste win). Counted in September 1881 in Crow King's Band; from December 1881 through June 1883, listed in Bear Hat's Band; leader of his own band by April 1884 up to his death during the arrest of Sitting Bull.
The census records support Waggoner's identification of Spotted Horn Bull as part of the Talonap'in Band. When his own band was formed by the spring of 1884, at least one third of the members (and probably more) were drawn from Charging Thunder's band, also listed as Talonap'in. These two bands are clearly linked by the various families.
Ephriam
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Post by ephriam on Dec 18, 2005 17:11:19 GMT -6
Any idea which Hunkpapa band No Neck belonged to?
No Neck (Tahu Wanica) was among the last to come in, living in Canada until 1884. He surrendered at Standing Rock some time between April and September 1884. In the Standing Rock Agency records, he is generally listed with 15 or 16 lodges in his band; one time with as many as 21 families. Still looking at these families, but looks like they include both Hunkpapa and Minnecoujou.
No Neck appears to have died during early to mid 1885 (his wife is listed as a widow in the 1885 census). A relative, Iron Star, is listed in the band up to 1885; then he is shown as the headman of Black Moon's old band. Several of the families in No Neck's band scatter to other Hunkpapa bands, but nearly half of them just disappear from the Standing Rock Agency records all together (moved to Cheyenne River Agency?)
Any insight anyone could provide would be helpful!
Ephriam
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Post by ephriam on Dec 19, 2005 11:06:39 GMT -6
A couple other notes:
The Cranbrook Wintercount notes that No Neck died in 1886 (census records show 1885).
No Neck's band is listed in the 1885 census with 16 families. Following the death of No Neck, the band split in two parts. Eight of the families remained together under the leadership of Shot to Pieces. They are shown together in the December 1885 annuity list but all disappear by the time of the 1886 census that summer. Did they go to Cheyenne River Agency or elsewhere?
The other half of No Neck's band moved with Iron Star to Black Moon's band. The younger Black Moon, leader of the band in 1885, disappears by the time of the 1886 census (died?; moved to another agency?). Iron Star became headman of that band, with the addition of seven families from No Neck's old band.
Ephriam
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Post by shan on Dec 19, 2005 15:32:14 GMT -6
seeing some new activity on this subject matter, I browsed back through previous posts and came across one by glenbow that gave a web site primeau.org that listed the head men whose families had received rations at Standing Rock in July 1885. Always on the look out for any mention of Low Dog, I browsed through several hundred names, and there he was. The only problem was that he was listed as part of the Blackfoot, Blackfoot Sioux I presume, when all other references to him imply that he was an Oglala, or a Siha Sapa which I'm assuming was some sort of branch of the Oglala. I have recently come to suspect that there may have been another man with the same name, no reason why not, can this be someone else? Decost Smith gives an account of meeting Low Dog the Oglala, "I would have known him amongst thousands," he says, at the Standing Rock agency at around the same time, so he was in the vicinity, I 'd be grateful if anybody could shed some light on the matter.
Some time back I enquired about another man, another Oglala by the name of Runs Fearless but having got no response, I presumed that there was very little information on him. Given that there are a few new people who now grace this thread, I thought it might be worth raising again. He is depicted several times in, ' A Pictograph History of the Oglala Sioux,' by Helen Blish, on one occasion being involved in the killing of one of the Rees in the battle of the Little Big Horn, but maybe more famously as far as the Sioux were concerned, in taking on, and overcoming four Crow warriors in the battle of the Big Dust.
Anybody ever seen a photograph of this man? Come on Dietmar and Hans, you seem to be good at unearthing new material,
Shan
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Post by ephriam on Dec 21, 2005 9:05:29 GMT -6
Shan:
You may notice that in the 1885 annuity list that you mentioned, there are actually two individuals named Low Dog. One is in Bear Looking Back's band (Hunkpapa) and the other is listed in Charging Bear's band (Blackfeet). Both of these men are also listed in the 1885 Standing Rock Agency census. The Hunkpapa Low Dog gave his age as 46, suggesting he was born about 1839 (too early to be the Oglala Low Dog). I do not have a copy of the Blackfeet portion of that census here at the house, so will have to look up the other Low Dog's age on the microfilm.
Since we last corresponded, I can add a couple of details about Low Dog. As we all know, he was at Standing Rock Agency with his family in 1881, transferred there from Fort Buford. He appears in both the Big Road Roster and the Sitting Bull Surrender Census that fall. Low Dog's band is shown in the Dec. 1881 annuity list with 22 families.
In another ledger for the Pine Ridge Agency, Low Dog and most of the 22 families in the SRA annuity list are shown as transfers. This shows that Low Dog and his band were transferred with the other Oglala to Pine Ridge in May 1882. Unfortunately, there is a gap in the Pine Ridge records between 1882 and 1886, so we do not yet know when Low Dog left Pine Ridge. He is not listed in the Pine Ridge Agency census for 1886. But we have the two Low Dogs at Standing Rock in 1885.
Finally, I have some question about the identification of Low Dog surrendering at Spotted Tail in 1877. The Spotted Tail Agency ledger book does list the families that came in from the late Lame Deer's band in September 1877 and there is an entry for someone named Low Dog or Law Dog (page 64). However, this individual gives his tribal affiliation as Wajaje Brule. This person is gone by the time the next census at Spotted Tail was conducted in Dec. 1877. I am not convinced that this is him.
Sorry, I have no information on Runs Fearless.
Ephriam
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Post by Dietmar on Dec 21, 2005 17:26:26 GMT -6
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Post by ephriam on Dec 21, 2005 18:56:53 GMT -6
Shan: I looked up the Blackfoot Lakota Low Dog in the Standing Rock Agency census records. He appears every year between 1885 (the first year of the Standing Rock census) through 1891 (the last year I looked at today). This Low Dog was born about 1848 (or 1846 according to the 1890 and 1891 census). His family includes: - Two Horses, wife (born c1853-54)
- Returns Last; later known as Thomas Low Dog, son (born c1870-71)
- Uses His Bow, son (born c1879)
- Comes Walking, daughter (born c1880-81)
- Kill the Number or Kill Nearby, son, (born c1886)
- Henry Low Dog, son (b.c1887)
- Madaline Low Dog, (born c1889)
There is some correlation for this individual to our Oglala Low Dog who is recorded in the Sitting Bull Surrender Census for 1881: Low Dog (born c1847) Medicine, wife (born c1848) One Who Makes Disorders, son (born c1870) Horse, son (born c1879) Hope this helps. Ephriam |
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Post by fred on Jan 1, 2006 6:29:31 GMT -6
Ephriam--
I have been following your posts for some time now & I really must tell you, your work is brilliant. I have seldom seen anything like it. My only regret when reading your work is that I have nothing to contribute.
I do have a question, however. Have you any idea which Sioux warriors were w/ the Cheyenne when Custer's troops arrived at Ford B? The only Sioux I have been able to identify is White Cow Bull, but any number of authors I have read claim there were 3, 4, or 5 Sioux defending the ford (along w/ several Cheyenne).
Happy new year, Ephriam. I look forward to reading more of what you post here.
Fred.
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Post by shatonska on Jan 1, 2006 9:29:24 GMT -6
Ephriam-- I have been following your posts for some time now & I really must tell you, your work is brilliant. I have seldom seen anything like it. My only regret when reading your work is that I have nothing to contribute. I do have a question, however. Have you any idea which Sioux warriors were w/ the Cheyenne when Custer's troops arrived at Ford B? The only Sioux I have been able to identify is White Cow Bull, but any number of authors I have read claim there were 3, 4, or 5 Sioux defending the ford (along w/ several Cheyenne). Happy new year, Ephriam. I look forward to reading more of what you post here. Fred. in michno's lakota noon you can find the account of one of this small group of lakotas who rode down mt coulee in front of the advancing custer's companies crossed the mt ford and joined the cheyennes to stop the soldiers , now i don't recall his name (shaved elk?) later i'll check it |
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Post by fred on Jan 1, 2006 10:24:38 GMT -6
Shatonska--
You're absolutely right!! Great! Thanks!
Shave Elk was part of Big Road's band of Oglala Sioux, & according to Michno, he & 4 others were riding up MTC when they spotted Custer coming down the coulee. It would make sense that 1 or more of those 5 would remain near the ford-- trying to defend it-- while 1 or more ran through the village w/ a warning.
I just missed it. Thanks again.
Happy new year,
Fred.
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Post by shatonska on Jan 1, 2006 13:58:13 GMT -6
Shatonska-- You're absolutely right!! Great! Thanks! Shave Elk was part of Big Road's band of Oglala Sioux, & according to Michno, he & 4 others were riding up MTC when they spotted Custer coming down the coulee. It would make sense that 1 or more of those 5 would remain near the ford-- trying to defend it-- while 1 or more ran through the village w/ a warning. I just missed it. Thanks again. Happy new year, Fred. yes they joined the cheyennes at the ford , as stated in a cheyenne acount too |
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Post by ephriam on Jan 3, 2006 19:35:54 GMT -6
Fred:
Thank you for your very kind comments!
Shan is correct. One of the most detailed accounts of the action at Ford B is from Thomas Disputed. I will put up what little information I have on him under the website's new heading for witnesses.
Have a great year!
Ephriam
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