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Post by weir on May 8, 2005 4:55:06 GMT -6
Xav; Those men were not cowards. The decision to stay at Reno's Hill was made by the officers, not the men. That you call it the hill of cowards is inaccurate and insulting to their memory. As for General Rosser, I-its easy for someone safe at home in his armchair to make heroic statements. He wasn't there. The evidence for attempted suicide is another instance of little substance and a lot of character assassination. Walt Benteen had not so much pity with the men of Custer. He insulted Custer and his men even after they were dead. Check the Reno's Court, or the Army and Navy Journal's articles. What did Rosser is only to defend the memories of those insulted men.
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Post by Walt Cross on May 8, 2005 8:02:50 GMT -6
He did have little affection for Custer. Custer on the other hand seemed not to harbor any grudge against Benteen.
Walt
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Post by Tricia on May 8, 2005 15:25:26 GMT -6
He did have little affection for Custer. Custer on the other hand seemed not to harbor any grudge against Benteen. Walt Walt. I am in agreement, with two "but"s ... Let's not make into Custer a special case. Benteen didn't like anybody, it seems. So I do not exactly know why Xav seems so miffed by what was normal behavior for ol' Fred. Custer, on the other hand (to use your words) didn't seem to be much of a grudge-holder. But Belknap certainly seemed to incur his wrath. Another point of agreement--doesn't seem to matter how cool and clear the air is, but from Weir Point, you cannot see much of anything going on at LSH--certainly not individual people. Regards, LMC (A quick note--I did spell Weir correctly. Do I get extra points on the test?)
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Post by Walt Cross on May 9, 2005 22:09:34 GMT -6
Rice; You get 10 Attaboy points for spelling the name correctly and 20 Attaboy points for your excellent statement with which I agree. Just remember, one "Aw Shucks!" knocks out 10 Attaboys. Bet Xav will be looking up Attaboy in his English to French dictionary. Walt
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Post by weir on May 10, 2005 11:19:45 GMT -6
Let's not make into Custer a special case. Benteen didn't like anybody, it seems. So I do not exactly know why Xav seems so miffed by what was normal behavior for ol' Fred.The betrayal makes me angry. 210 men abandonned. What was really Benteen - a frustrated loser whose career has never been the tenth of Custer's - I don't care. What makes me angry too is this angelic view of the period most of the people on this board have, particulary about Benteen's and Reno's behavior. Reno to be a coward, nobody really disagree, but on Benteen people are so careful with the words... Custer, on the other hand (to use your words) didn't seem to be much of a grudge-holder. But Belknap certainly seemed to incur his wrath.After the Belknap scandal Custer kick the face of agent E. G. Rice (implied in the scandal) on a street in Washington. Another point of agreement--doesn't seem to matter how cool and clear the air is, but from Weir Point, you cannot see much of anything going on at LSH--certainly not individual people. Tell this stupid Reno who testified - and lied as usual - he saw Harrington in the indian village from Reno Hill... Officers had glasses. I agree they couldn't see individuals. And.. ? The real matter is to determine if a fight was going on or not. Because if officers couldn't see Custer himself, they could see the fight. And Custer's men and survivors could see the flag Benteen erected on the Weir Peaks. Officers did see the fight at 1750-1800. They did, not only Weir and Edgerly, but Hare, Godfrey, Benteen... Soldiers like sergeant Windolph (Benteen's battalion) reported they could, without glasses, determine that a "big fight was going on". They abandonned men they saw still fighting. Benteen ordered that. Oh Walt, little words for you : apprenez un peu à perdre votre vision infantile de la bataille... That's french I hope a so open guy like you can translate.
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Post by Walt Cross on May 10, 2005 15:18:48 GMT -6
Xav; Something about small baby vision. My Vietnamese French is a little rusty. Haven't spoken it since I left Vietnam in 1969. Well sir, I've no doubt it is a grievous insult. Shall we say swords at dawn? I must worn you I took lessons from D'Artagnan. One of my earliest heros from my childhood, along with, you guessed it...George Armstrong Custer!
My second will call upon you.
Walt
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Post by crzhrs on May 10, 2005 16:11:15 GMT -6
<Another point of agreement--doesn't seem to matter how cool and clear the air is, but from Weir Point, you cannot see much of anything going on at LSH--certainly not individual people>
I wonder how much the air/environment has deteriorated since 1876. We all know there were no cities, industries, mills, smog, pollution, etc. in that part of the West in 1876. The air and visibility must have been pristine with long-range views almost certain. So . . . who is to say that visibility was far more clearer than it is today?
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Post by crzhrs on May 10, 2005 16:22:51 GMT -6
On Weir Hill several men later testified they saw Indians milling around, shooting at objects on the ground, and Edgerly even admitted later that he saw the hill black with Indians and Custer's command all dead.
They were attempting to follow Custer's route and come to his aid, but once the Indians saw them they charged en masse, forcing the command back to Reno Hill. If Weir's command had gone any further they would have ended up either severly mauled or dead.
So to say Weir and the rest failed to come to Custer's aid (albeit not as rapidly as they should) is not totally true, they did make an attempt to investigate the sounds of battle but were forced back by the sheer volume of warriors coming at them in full battle fury.
Also Weir's company being part of Benteen's command, had not felt the wrath of the Indians as did Reno's men. They were totally unprepared for a full-charge attack by warriors that were suppose to run when the military attacked.
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Post by Tricia on May 10, 2005 17:12:30 GMT -6
Xav; Something about small baby vision. My Vietnamese French is a little rusty. Haven't spoken it since I left Vietnam in 1969. Well sir, I've no doubt it is a grievous insult. Shall we say swords at dawn? I must worn you I took lessons from D'Artagnan. One of my earliest heros from my childhood, along with, you guessed it...George Armstrong Custer! My second will call upon you. Walt If you're taking D'Artagnan--sigh--I'm sure we can recruit one Edmond Dantes as your second--talk about a sword-fighting dude who knew a thing or two about betrayal! Although personally, I always dug Aramis .... him and Madame de Chevereuse .... and Athos and Mde. de Chevereuse .... don't get me thinking about the possibility of Porthos! Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by Tricia on May 10, 2005 17:18:37 GMT -6
Xav--
Which survivors of Custer's battalion testified that, from Last Stand Hill, they could see the guidon Benteen stuck on the top of one of the Weir peaks?
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by twomoons on May 10, 2005 17:53:15 GMT -6
ummm... let me take a guess. Comanche? ;D
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Post by Walt Cross on May 10, 2005 20:47:57 GMT -6
Two Moons; How droll, very good!
Czhrs; Come on ole buddy, I don't care how clear of pollution the air was back then, the dust and smoke from thousands of men in battle and hundreds of horses galloping about would not leave much to be seen. Logic says these men saw little to nothing. Their imaginations after the fact made their minds eye see events they never actually saw.
Layton, have Edmund stand by, as soon as I find where Xav is holed up we'll send him. My guess would be some Mediteranean port on a wine red sea. Perhaps in Corsica. How about it Xav, you in Corsica? And do you like the German heavy saber or the French rapier?
Walter De La Croix
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Post by weir on May 11, 2005 6:11:44 GMT -6
From Crzy Hrse :
They were attempting to follow Custer's route and come to his aid, but once the Indians saw them they charged en masse, forcing the command back to Reno Hill. If Weir's command had gone any further they would have ended up either severly mauled or dead.
So to say Weir and the rest failed to come to Custer's aid (albeit not as rapidly as they should) is not totally true, they did make an attempt to investigate the sounds of battle but were forced back by the sheer volume of warriors coming at them in full battle fury.
They did attempt...? Weir had to disobey, before that Benteen had never attempted anything ! If you look at the testimonies carefully, you will see that Godfrey and Edgerly testified it has never been a serious fight at all in Weir Point. Even Edgerly said "we weren't repulse". He testified at the Reno's Court of Inquiry. Check out.
The sheer and the volume of warriors were in fact Low Dog and a group of warriors coming from Calhoun Hill. Red Horse testified (Lakota Noon) that he was afraid that the soldiers fought before [Reno] will attack from the rear but they did not and he, Red Horse, thought they were out of ammo.
The most stupid thing at all is to think that Benteen and Reno didn't see anything, although if you think wrongly the battle was finished at 17h30, 20 minutes later the smoke would have been no longer there... But the battle was not over. And the difference between a battle engaged and no more battle, soldiers can determine that, even this bastard Benteen.
What do you want more... ? More than Indians and soldiers statements ? Benteen's approval ? Walt Cross's opinion ?
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Post by weir on May 11, 2005 6:47:30 GMT -6
Xav-- Which survivors of Custer's battalion testified that, from Last Stand Hill, they could see the guidon Benteen stuck on the top of one of the Weir peaks? Regards, Leyton McLean Maybe Lt Butler sent to reach Weir Point but cut off before by Indians on Battle Ridge, near MTC ? According to Indians testimonies, a soldier (thought to be Butler) attempted to reach the east (south for Indians) before the final moment (around 18h00, the final moment is 18h20). Why ? Because he was sent by Custer to reach men on Weir Point who for an unexplainable reason didn't advance for helping the survivors. Comanche is not even the sole survivor of Custer's command... A gray wounded horse was found by Terry/Gibbon, rode with the column back but disappeared near the Yellowstone River.
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Post by custerstillstands on May 11, 2005 7:24:35 GMT -6
Benteen's and Reno's men didn't say that they saw the last time of the battle. They actually saw the battle itself going on.
Lieutenant Hare : "A great battle was going on." Sergent Pigford : "I saw Indians circling near the hill." Sergent Windolph : "There was a lot of fighting going on."
How do we know that they saw more that they said ? Because Benteen said : "We cannot see Custer Hill from Weir Point." HAHAHA Freddy Benteen is really a great liar ! Everybody who climb Weir Point will see Custer Hill.
After waiting for 1h30, Benteen and Reno went to Weir Point NOT by their own decision, BUT only because Weir went north. We can conclude that Reno and Benteen would have NEVER decided to go to Weir Point if Weir hadn't do it. Without any Indian around their hill, they had no reason to stay, no reason except they were treators.
Benteen saw Custer bataillon fighting (it was the last stand of Calhoun Hill) and decided to leave 210 men to their fate.
That's how it happened. Reno's and Benteen's treason.
In Evan S. Connell's book, Garlington said that Weir was found in a river while the regiment was going back to Fort Lincoln.
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