Post by twomoons on May 3, 2005 13:47:28 GMT -6
I don't believe that an actual comparitive study of Gray's analysis during the time that Custer left for MTF and the other surrounds have been done.
At the time that Custer's battalion began to descend towards MTF, at 3:34; Reno's skirmish line begins to withdraw into the timber, 3:33. This was about 6-7 minutes before Benteens battalion meets the Ree's chasing the Sioux ponies.
By the time (part of, co's E,F) Custer's battalion reached MTF, at 4:18 (This is the marked time for the start of Custer's battle); The van of Reno's retreat arrived on Reno Hill at 4:10, and Benteen was to arrive minutes later on Reno Hill at, 4:20. The remnants of Custer's battalion (C,I,L) arrives at Luce ridge at; 4:16. Now at 4:25 it is reported that heavy firing from Custer's direction is heard, at this same time Reno leaves to find Hodson. This was just 7 minutes after E,F co's arrival at MTF.
It is stated by Gray that at 4:46 was when the two wings of Custer's battalion met at a point called by him, reunion point, ie.on or near, Calhoun Hill. About a minute later, 4:47 the Packtrain sights troops on Reno Hill. And a minute before, 4:45 the 3 crows leave for home. And 5 minutes later, 4:50, Reno returns from his search.
It would have taken Custer's ford D troopers 7 to 9 minutes to reach ford D from the reunion point. Taking into consideration a time of 1 to 2 minutes for their conference there the total time after leaveing reunion point and their arrival there would have put them at ford D barring halts, at 4:55 to 4:57. In less than 15 to 17 minutes the heavy firing would die down at 5:10 - 5:12.
At 5:05 Weir leaves downriver to find Custer. And by 5:10 -5:12 or so the heavy firing from Custer's direction ceased.
Now it is thought that the Calhoun position held that position for about 20 minutes. This from cartridge cases and times of reload. If this timing is correct, then that means they held Calhoun hill until 5:07 - 3 to 5 minutes before the heavy firing died down. If Custer's troopers at Ford D turned around and galloped back to the flats it would have taken them about 5 minutes to reach there. Placing them there at 5:00 to 5:02. It was thought that they held this position or halted here for a time, but it would take them another 2 minutes to reach Custer Hill from that position. They very well may have halted there until Calhoun Hill's defense broke down at about 5:07. This would have meant that this halt would have lasted about 5 to 7 minutes. If this is correct then they reached Custer hill at about 5:09, just a several minutes (1-3) before, the heavy firing was heard to die down, from Reno Hill.
The last factor in this timing event is the indians stories that it took a very short time. If we assume that the 20 minutes or so was from the time of the Grey horses arrival atop Calhoun hill at 4:47 and add the 20 minutes to this we get 5:07. If the fighting for Custer Hill lasted but a few moments, ie. "until the heavy firing died down" at 5:10 -5:12, then you have only a few minutes until the battle is over. Custer arrived at Custer Hill to late to help save the others. Indecision, perhaps, but we do know that only sporadic shots were heard from about 5:10 -5:12 on. That McDougall testified that he heard two sharp volley's at about 5:10 is also interesting. These volleys, most concur are signals of distress. It is also interesting that only sporadic firing was heard after that, not "heavy firing".
The other thing that always gets me is the fact that most people can't fathom waves of indians pouring over last stand hill. Did it happen, could it have happened. Perhaps, but there is one other thing to consider. The indians said that they surrounded the soldiers from Calhoun hill. If they surrounded them then those indians on horses wouldn't just be standing still, in fact several accounts of this by the indians do state that they were firing on the move in a circular pattern around these soldiers, much like the covered wagon tails from old movies. In a way it makes sense. They wouldn't just stand there, their mobility would have made it better for them to sortie around the soldiers. The other factor in this is the same for Custer Hill. If the waves of indians reached the hill at the same time Calhoun was overrun then it makes sense that - that position was likewise sortied by the indians in the same manner. The evidence for this is the final placement of the soldiers atop last stand hill. The logical place for them was the southwest potion of that hillock. They could maintain contact with the Keogh, Calhoun contingent while trying to defend themselves, and use the hill as a barrier of sorts, to be completely surrounded and fired at from all sides.
The question still remains. If Crazy Horse broke through from Deep Ravine, at what time did he do this? And further what impact would it have made? If Crazy Horse and those indians with him began their crossing of the LBH into Deep Ravine at about 5:07, this would also explain alot. Also those solders atop Calhoun hill and in the Keogh sector were being flanked from the east. When you put things together this way it is self evident that the battle lasting longer than or past at least 5:15 isn't so impossible. The times jive with Grey's analysis, and also the indian statements.
The question of Weir's sightings from Weir point then become interesting. Gray's analysis says that Wier's troopers left Reno Hill at 5:05 and then places him leisurely there at 5:25. If Weir was way out in front as the statements made about this advance indicate, he may very well have arrived there as early as 8 minutes after departing, which would have put him there the earliest at 5:13. One can only imagine what he saw. But if he saw what we think he saw, according to these times, I don't blame him for drinking himself to death, do you?
At the time that Custer's battalion began to descend towards MTF, at 3:34; Reno's skirmish line begins to withdraw into the timber, 3:33. This was about 6-7 minutes before Benteens battalion meets the Ree's chasing the Sioux ponies.
By the time (part of, co's E,F) Custer's battalion reached MTF, at 4:18 (This is the marked time for the start of Custer's battle); The van of Reno's retreat arrived on Reno Hill at 4:10, and Benteen was to arrive minutes later on Reno Hill at, 4:20. The remnants of Custer's battalion (C,I,L) arrives at Luce ridge at; 4:16. Now at 4:25 it is reported that heavy firing from Custer's direction is heard, at this same time Reno leaves to find Hodson. This was just 7 minutes after E,F co's arrival at MTF.
It is stated by Gray that at 4:46 was when the two wings of Custer's battalion met at a point called by him, reunion point, ie.on or near, Calhoun Hill. About a minute later, 4:47 the Packtrain sights troops on Reno Hill. And a minute before, 4:45 the 3 crows leave for home. And 5 minutes later, 4:50, Reno returns from his search.
It would have taken Custer's ford D troopers 7 to 9 minutes to reach ford D from the reunion point. Taking into consideration a time of 1 to 2 minutes for their conference there the total time after leaveing reunion point and their arrival there would have put them at ford D barring halts, at 4:55 to 4:57. In less than 15 to 17 minutes the heavy firing would die down at 5:10 - 5:12.
At 5:05 Weir leaves downriver to find Custer. And by 5:10 -5:12 or so the heavy firing from Custer's direction ceased.
Now it is thought that the Calhoun position held that position for about 20 minutes. This from cartridge cases and times of reload. If this timing is correct, then that means they held Calhoun hill until 5:07 - 3 to 5 minutes before the heavy firing died down. If Custer's troopers at Ford D turned around and galloped back to the flats it would have taken them about 5 minutes to reach there. Placing them there at 5:00 to 5:02. It was thought that they held this position or halted here for a time, but it would take them another 2 minutes to reach Custer Hill from that position. They very well may have halted there until Calhoun Hill's defense broke down at about 5:07. This would have meant that this halt would have lasted about 5 to 7 minutes. If this is correct then they reached Custer hill at about 5:09, just a several minutes (1-3) before, the heavy firing was heard to die down, from Reno Hill.
The last factor in this timing event is the indians stories that it took a very short time. If we assume that the 20 minutes or so was from the time of the Grey horses arrival atop Calhoun hill at 4:47 and add the 20 minutes to this we get 5:07. If the fighting for Custer Hill lasted but a few moments, ie. "until the heavy firing died down" at 5:10 -5:12, then you have only a few minutes until the battle is over. Custer arrived at Custer Hill to late to help save the others. Indecision, perhaps, but we do know that only sporadic shots were heard from about 5:10 -5:12 on. That McDougall testified that he heard two sharp volley's at about 5:10 is also interesting. These volleys, most concur are signals of distress. It is also interesting that only sporadic firing was heard after that, not "heavy firing".
The other thing that always gets me is the fact that most people can't fathom waves of indians pouring over last stand hill. Did it happen, could it have happened. Perhaps, but there is one other thing to consider. The indians said that they surrounded the soldiers from Calhoun hill. If they surrounded them then those indians on horses wouldn't just be standing still, in fact several accounts of this by the indians do state that they were firing on the move in a circular pattern around these soldiers, much like the covered wagon tails from old movies. In a way it makes sense. They wouldn't just stand there, their mobility would have made it better for them to sortie around the soldiers. The other factor in this is the same for Custer Hill. If the waves of indians reached the hill at the same time Calhoun was overrun then it makes sense that - that position was likewise sortied by the indians in the same manner. The evidence for this is the final placement of the soldiers atop last stand hill. The logical place for them was the southwest potion of that hillock. They could maintain contact with the Keogh, Calhoun contingent while trying to defend themselves, and use the hill as a barrier of sorts, to be completely surrounded and fired at from all sides.
The question still remains. If Crazy Horse broke through from Deep Ravine, at what time did he do this? And further what impact would it have made? If Crazy Horse and those indians with him began their crossing of the LBH into Deep Ravine at about 5:07, this would also explain alot. Also those solders atop Calhoun hill and in the Keogh sector were being flanked from the east. When you put things together this way it is self evident that the battle lasting longer than or past at least 5:15 isn't so impossible. The times jive with Grey's analysis, and also the indian statements.
The question of Weir's sightings from Weir point then become interesting. Gray's analysis says that Wier's troopers left Reno Hill at 5:05 and then places him leisurely there at 5:25. If Weir was way out in front as the statements made about this advance indicate, he may very well have arrived there as early as 8 minutes after departing, which would have put him there the earliest at 5:13. One can only imagine what he saw. But if he saw what we think he saw, according to these times, I don't blame him for drinking himself to death, do you?