Joel H. Elliott

[BrokenSword]

crzhrs - '... you and I go into mountains ... smoke many pipes... drink much whiskey...get crazy in head...' I agree with you.

Technicalities win on the war-game boards, not on the battlefield.

Its entirely academic as to whether a combined Terry/Custer force COULD have completed the mission of the campaign.

BUT - It should be clear to all that Custer gave the Indian warriors a rather cheap victory. The destiny of the plains tribes was written. The Little Bighorn fight merely delayed the inevitable, and served only to lay the ground work for further tragedy.

M

[crzhrs]

<crzhrs - '... you and I go into mountains ... smoke many pipes... drink much whiskey...get crazy in head...' I agree with you>

She Wore a Yellow Ribbon?

How many men did Terry have? I think it was less than Custer . . . yet as Terry approached there were many warriors willing to take them on or at least sting them a little.

I believe Low Dog stated they were ready to fight him but the head men said no and they moved off.

The best the Indians could have done were better negotiations and try to get concessions from the White Man. But the LBH defeat was too humiliating for that. The military eventually harrassed the tribes forcing them constantly to be on the move with little time for hunting and rest.

The two main battles after the LBH, the attack on Dull Knives village which broke the Cheyenne and Miles battle with Crazy Horse at Wolf Mt.--finally convinced most of the hostiles that resistance was futile.

A sad end to the Great Plains People . . .

[BrokenSword]

crzhrs -

"...She Wore a Yellow Ribbon?..."

Yup. (That was my Gary Cooper impression. Pretty good, eh?)

M

[conz]

As Horse says, it is a good debate, with plenty left to go. <G>

I'll start a new thread so folks can contribute as they wish...

Clair

[crzhrs]

I thought it was the Cheyenne Indian chief who was talking to John Wayne about letting the young men fight while they go off and get loaded.

[BrokenSword]

crzhrs-

That's right. In other words, maybe, "Heck if I can figure out what their talking about. Let's go have a drink."

M

[harpskiddie]

Take salt. Take salt, Nathan my brother. My heart is sad Pony That Walks........

Have you ever been scared Captain Tyree? Yes, sir. Up to and includin' now.

Hunt buffalo, get drunk together......my young men, your young men..............

I see by my brand new silver watch..........................

And so Nathan Brittles, ex-Captain of Cavalry, turned his face to the west, which is the refuge of all old men........................

But the Army wasn't finished with Nathan Brittles, and it sent a galloper after him. That was Sergeant Tyree's department.

I was going to name my son Travis Tyree Harper in honor of the character portrayed by Ben Johnson [my true hero] in SWAYR and RG. My wife would not stand for it. Have you guys noted the inconsistent overlap of names in the Ford Trilogy. Wayne plays Kirby York in Fort Apache and in Rio Grande [although the timing is way way off] and Johnson plays Travis Tyree in Rio Grande and She Wore A Yellow Ribbon [again with timing problems].

Gordie

[markland]

conz said:

markland said:

No, what is reprehensible is that a trained and, one would assume, skilled commanding officer got himself and his men killed without accomplishing his mission or any portion thereof. Wasted you might say.

Billy

Hmmm....would you apply that judgment standard to Robert Lee, then? Of course, he lived, while so many of his men died, and he failed to no purpose.

At least Custer's defeat still accomplished the overall endstate of his mission...to drive the Natives onto the reservations. What did Lee's sacrifice accomplish?

Just wondering at the perspectives on judgment, here...

Clair

As far as some of his individual battles and use of his influence, yes. Malvern Hill was a bloody mess; Antietam was an even bloodier mess and Gettysburg should never have happened. He failed to use his influence with Davis (a man, incidentally, who I have absolutely no respect for) to improve the Army of the Tennessee (Bragg & then Hood-granted that by the time Hood was named commander, the pool of qualified officers had been greatly diminished); in my opinion, Lee suffered too much from a Virginia-centric strategy and never considered the CSA as a whole. While Lee concentrated on defending Virginia, the Union consolidated it's hold on the Ohio river and the states of Missouri and Kentucky, gained control of the Tennessee and Mississippi rivers and remained a viable threat to Lee's supply lines by having Union forces in eastern North Carolina, within striking distance of several points of the Weldon railroad.

So, you may notice that while I respect Marse Robert, I don't believe he walked on water.

Be good,

Billy

[BrokenSword]

Gordie-

Well remembered, as per usual. I have noted the over-lap in character's names in Ford's films. I figured he just liked the sound of those names. There was often a Sgt. Quincannon (sp?) as well, usually played by Victor McLaglen.

BTW - I DID name my son Myles (after you know who) and would have whether his mother liked it or not. Luckily she liked it. He hated it - until he discovered that girls thought his name was 'cool.'

M
Here comes Ratchet again. If she catches me at her computer again she won't let me have any ice cream tonight.

[BrokenSword]

Billy-

I (FWIW) agree with you about Lee's mind-set. Many people considered state allegience to be their first loyalty over national allegience before the Civil War. 'THESE United States' before, as opposed to 'THE United States' afterward. Lee seemed to be of that before group. Rather amazing that he couldn't see 'the Big Picture' (as it were) any clearer than he did.

M

[Scout]

I agree with you on Davis Billy. I have never had any respect for the man whatsoever. Bragg and Hood. Two complete boneheads. The South may have been doomed from the start but these two sped up the process. Forrest, always a good judge of military ability, had run-ins with both and threatened to slap both.

[conz]

scout2 said:

I agree with you on Davis Billy. I have never had any respect for the man whatsoever. Bragg and Hood. Two complete boneheads. The South may have been doomed from the start but these two sped up the process. Forrest, always a good judge of military ability, had run-ins with both and threatened to slap both.

And none of the 7th Cav's officers fought Nathan Forrest longer and harder than Capt. Elliot did!

I love it when a plan comes together...

Clair

[Melani]

conz said:

I suggest that we consider these boards as one big virtual Officer's Club...just try to stay sober. <g>

Clair

I've been hoping you guys won't drive me to drink!

[conz]

Melani,

Would you like a little ice in your bourbon?

ConZ

[Jenny]

I keep finding threads that dead-end when I still have questions! 

Is there evidence that Custer and Elliott were on the outs at Washita? I swear I read something about it, but maybe it was someone's opinion, or the recounting of someone's opinion. Fred mentioned that Elliott was a popular officer and probably straddled the fence on many things - as (I would imagine) a direct result of Custer not being popular. That kind of tension could break even a strictly professional friendship. The thing is, I can't get past the fact that Custer didn't go look for Elliott - his good friend. To me it implies things were chillier between them than anyone knew. That kind of bad blood seems like it would be obvious to anyone who spent time with the two men, or with one when the other wasn't around.

Jenny