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Post by fred on Feb 29, 2008 17:42:12 GMT -6
Mike--
The praise is well-deserved; remember, I have seen your stuff and I would better rely on your times than on John Gray's. While I certainly have the utmost respect for Gray as a historian and as a technician, I feel his time analyses are skewed based on his own theories.
Your discipline is better than mine regarding the times because I generally use HQ time, then revert back to Indian/local sun, so my mind is always calculating and re-calculating. Your way is better. Having said that, I discount anything from Curley once beyond Weir Peaks.
Next, my fulcrum-point is the DeRudio sighting of Custer, vis-à-vis, the past actions of Custer's command, assuming the continuation of his mindset. In other words, speed. If you use DeRudio and calculate the time and distance between the sighting and the volley firing, you come up with a similarly rapid gait between the mounting of the Reno Hill bluffs and the move to MTC, Luce, and Ford B. It computes to 10 to 12 mph, a very doable gait even given the terrain considerations.
There was a very interesting program on the U. S. History Channel the other night. It dealt with the destructive power of ancient weaponry and the particular experiment I was taken with involved the scythe-chariot. They put one together and stuck it in an oval-shaped arena, I believe some 250 yards in length. The chariot was pulled by two horses and carried one man in full ancient armor. They used a radar gun to clock the speed of the chariot and it reached speeds of 20 mph and 23 mph in the straight-away. That showed me that a speed of 10 or 12 mph for distances of 3, 4, maybe even 5 miles at the LBH was feasible, especially when you consider a marathoner can run at a speed approaching 13 mph for more than 2 hours.
Wild--
I agree with your last post. It is reasonable, if Custer came under attack. That theory would be as good as any. Again, however, I don't think that was the case and I believe Custer was under no such hinderances. While he may have been anxious, there were no reports of anything unusual in his demeanor... at least not during that 48-hour timeframe.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 1, 2008 1:39:11 GMT -6
Hi Wild
Custer would be likely to go North to look for a better crossing with a clear area to cross onto. I beleive that the village extended at least as far as being opposite MTC and it would not be sensible to enter the village proper until the warriors had been defeated. I liked the analogy a previous poster used of not taking a Panzer Division into the centre of Stalingrad.
If the cavalry got in amongst the tepees then all their advantages of cohesion and superior range weapons would be lost. These are excellent reasons for Custer to have gone North.
Hi Fred
Curley is a really infuriating witness because he reports things which he could not know unless he was there. I have some time data from him which looks quite good to me for example he said the Custer fight started between 2.30pm and 3pm by the sun and that the fight was over by the time he returned to look again 2 hours later. However, in another account he is reported as saying firing went on until sundown which can only be true if he was confusing the sound of the Custer and Reno fights or making it all up or being mistranslated.
There is one limiting factor on Custer's possible rate of travel and that is the fact that Boston caught him up. I would judge that when Martini met Boston they would have both been 10 - 15 minutes away from where Custer was at whatever speed Martini was riding at plus the speed that Custer was going in the opposite direction. Let us say Martini and Custer were both travelling at 6 mph - that would mean Boston was at least 2 miles behind Custer. If Custer had set off anywhere at the sorts of speed you are talking about there would be vitually no chance that Boston could catch up that distance in time to die on the hill as he would have been intercepted by hostiles.
Regards
Mike
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Post by fred on Mar 1, 2008 6:53:05 GMT -6
Mike--
I would agree with the Curley timing of the Custer fight's beginning if he said that was HQ time. That still may be a possibility because of all the hearsay. I know he spoke no English, but no one ever said any of these men were stupid and who knows what gets translated when. A 2:30 to 3 o'clock start of Custer's Ford B foray and fighting thereafter works well for me, as long as it is HQ time.
Despite the speed, I think Custer stopped for at least ten minutes while he overlooked the valley fight. But again, the problem with me theorizing some of this is that I have not done enough work to argue many of my so-called theories. Ideas may be a better word.
There has been discussion of Boston Custer on these boards, but since it wasn't something I was terribly interested in at the time, I pretty much ignored it. A 10- to 15-minute stop gives a hard-riding horseman a good deal of time to catch up, maybe as much as three miles. Plus, there was a pause-- however brief-- at Luce Ridge-- 2, 3 minutes-- and Boston could have reached them around that time. His arrival always makes me believe there were fewer Indians on the east side-- at least beyond the bluffs, than Clair thinks. The problem I have with Indians on the eastern bluffs lies solely with the fact I don't believe they were mounted. I have no issue with 50-100 Indians mounting these bluffs (especially since agency Indians had been camped there), but not on horseback. That would have posed no problem to a mounted column and it would have been quite easy for cavalry on Luce to hold them at bay.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by elisabeth on Mar 1, 2008 7:43:28 GMT -6
A crazy thought, and do feel free to shoot it down in flames: could that artifact field at Luce reflect firing to cover Boston's arrival? A small number of Indians there mightn't threaten the command itself much, but they couldn't be allowed to do in the CO's baby brother at this early stage in the proceedings.
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Post by fred on Mar 1, 2008 8:51:48 GMT -6
... could that artifact field at Luce reflect firing to cover Boston's arrival? A small number of Indians there mightn't threaten the command itself much, but they couldn't be allowed to do in the CO's baby brother at this early stage in the proceedings. Why not? It is a more plausible explanation than any I can come up with! It makes perfect sense to me, it is something I would do... why not? The only caveat I might throw in is the timing ( you just knew that would have to happen, right?), but I do not even see much of a problem there. You may very well be on to something, Elisabeth. Unless proven otherwise, I really like that idea. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Mar 1, 2008 11:15:39 GMT -6
It was not a village alla the one at the Washita. It was a conglomeration of villages.At the Washita Custer attacked a single village of 60 lodges with 700 men.At the LBH he is attempting to attack several villages comprising 1000 lodges with 210 men. Is there a point at which the self preservation mechanism in his brain will kick in and convince him that this is madness?
Hi Mike Then you hold that there was no attempt to cross at ford B? You know that a detour via ford D will add 5 miles and probably another hour to his itinerary? And if you are looking for another ford why ride 1/2 a mile away from the river. A retreat from ford B is a more likely scenario.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 1, 2008 19:27:21 GMT -6
A crazy thought, and do feel free to shoot it down in flames: could that artifact field at Luce reflect firing to cover Boston's arrival? A small number of Indians there mightn't threaten the command itself much, but they couldn't be allowed to do in the CO's baby brother at this early stage in the proceedings. Hmmm...now that's an idea worth a little more thought--it just might explain the Luce field. Thanks for the idea! Or maybe it could be a similar incident?? (I've always wondered about those F Company soldiers out to the east (or were they?). Jas~
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Post by mystic on Mar 2, 2008 4:31:17 GMT -6
just finished reading Pennington's latest - CUSTER VINDICATED.
I'm rootin' for him...
One round to Custer's chest at the Ford - then one round from Custer's small revolver to his temple administered by Tom on LSH, with all around in total confusion and terror...
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 2, 2008 4:46:59 GMT -6
Elisabeth, You do come up with some really good ideas! I estimate that it is about two and a half miles from where Martini might have met Boston to Luce Ridge. If he was going at 5mph (he had already ridden a pretty quick 6 -7 miles) then it would have taken him 30 minutes to get to Luce.
I have the Martini Boston meeting a little before 2.10pm and the Custer volleys being heard around 2.40pm (4pm if you want to use St Paul time). Thus your theory is a good fit for the timeline as well as being logical!!
I have never really liked the idea that Custer was waiting for Benteen at this stage but have been previously tempted by the thought that he would be keeping an eye and a way open for his little brother.
Hi Wild
These days I do not actually think Custer got anywhere near Ford D especially if he was greeting Boston on Luce Ridge around 2.40pm. I think his personal fight was finished within about 30 minutes of that possible event and whilst he may have been heading in the general direction of Ford D when he moved North I do not think he actually got there.
Regards
Mike
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 2, 2008 8:48:52 GMT -6
Anything based upon a tale appearing decades after the sole teller gave testimony conflicting with it is not logical. It's absurd to assume Martini met Boston en route and never mentioned it for decades. If you would not, and some here said they would not, believe any tale about the hat waving appearing in the same manner, this cannot be defended.
Anything, like timing or theory, based upon it cannot but be vaporware.
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Post by fred on Mar 2, 2008 9:07:20 GMT -6
Anything based upon a tale appearing decades after the sole teller gave testimony conflicting with it is not logical. It's absurd to assume Martini met Boston en route and never mentioned it for decades. Boy, oh boy! is this correct, or what?!If A = B, and B = C, then A = C. Martini = Curley; Curley = Kanipe; ergo, Kanipe = Martini. Graham once remarked that you could take your choice of which Goldin story to believe, for they were “all are priced the same.” That could just about apply to Martini, as well. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by mcaryf on Mar 2, 2008 10:41:17 GMT -6
Actually we have a bit more than just Martini's word. We have evidence from Edgerly that Boston passed Benteen's column about a mile short of the Morass i.e. about 7 miles from where he might have met Martini. This was probably a little bit after 1pm because the pack train was spotted a mile further back i.e.about 5 miles from its start. Since the packs travelled at an average of 3mph and started 20 minutes later than everybody else at 11.15am a bit after 1pm would be consistent.
If he has to travel 7 miles to meet Martini then about an hour and a few minutes later at a few minutes after 2pm would again be consistent.
It does not prove that the Martini meeting happened but it certainly demonstrates that it was a possibility and for the purpose of Elisabeth's theory about the firing from Luce Ridge it places Boston in the right area at the right time.
Regards
Mike
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 2, 2008 12:14:01 GMT -6
You're finding solace in the passive voice. Who said the train was definitely a mile back, was it just the first mule or the bulk, and when was this said?
You're picking a time arbitrarily as fact, and now accepting Gray's pacing for the mules (which I thought you contested....).
"This was probably a little bit..." fails to fall within convincing evidence territory.
You have to deal with: Martin saying Custer and his brothers were there when he left (and this under oath) and the utter absence of any mention of the meeting for a quarter century or more. That's utterly unbelievable, and if for comparison applied to other tales wouldn't be believed. Then, as now, people would be all over it. They weren't. He made it up as, like its attractions to you, it was plausible, added to his luster, wouldn't appear to be important enough for anyone to care and contest or query. This is hard evidence that he didn't meet Boston. It IS possible it happened, but highly unlikely.
You ought to conform your times to the liklihood that Boston was there, did not meet Kanipe or Martin. What would it change?
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Post by wild on Mar 2, 2008 16:43:00 GMT -6
As the three main actions occured independenly of each other timing is of little consequence.
Both Boston and Martini would have been navagating via Custer's trail and it is more probably than possible that they passed each other. The fact that it was not published for 25 years does not mean Martin never mentioned it.
If Custer was shot at Ford B how did Boston escape the attentions of the Indians in the vicinity of MTC.
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Post by pohanka on Jun 21, 2008 17:44:39 GMT -6
It's absurd to assume Martini met Boston en route and never mentioned it for decades. Not if no one asked him if he passed Boston for decades. Just imagine this conversation. "Hey Johnnie, why didn't you tell anyone about meeting that kid Boston?" "Hell, no body asked me until yesterday!"
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