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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 22, 2011 4:52:03 GMT -6
Gunga din was on last week, had to watch again, going back to Cavalry training.
How was the U.S. Cavalry actually trained to fight,
A: mounted until they came in contact with the enemy, then form Skirmish ?.
That would mean a loss of mobility, the Cavalry mans best asset, and having men spread out in skirmish line is not very effective against a mobile enemy for long.
B: mounted attack ?.
They had no Sabres (I know Chuck that they are only good for cutting cake) or lances (like the European Cavalry) and I heard that they had no training in mounted Carbine fire, that leaves them with there pistol only, 6 rounds hard to re-lode when mounted in action.
Taking all this into account, I wonder what was the way to use Cavalry against Indians.
Is it true that Indians didn't like fighting the foot soldiers (Infantry) could they put up a better volley of fire, maybe they didn't like bayonets, or did the Infantry always take Howitzers along with them.
Ian.
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Post by wild on Aug 22, 2011 23:38:03 GMT -6
You can fight on horseback.You can fight with fire arms but you cannot mix the two except fire a volley then draw sabres and charge.
The only option Custer had was to cross at MTCF.Advance on foot into the village with his scouts following burning everything as they advanced.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 23, 2011 5:00:06 GMT -6
He should have enlisted the help of the Irish Dragoon Guards, they would have made some noise that day.
Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 23, 2011 7:02:37 GMT -6
Here are a few of my opinions along with my observation of the size of cavalry uniforms as an indicator of the size of the troopers. There was nothing in their size to put fear in the Indian about closing in for close quarter battle.
When fighting in close quarters against handheld weapons you need something to deflect the blows. I don't know if they used the carbine for that and the way it was worn would limit its use.
The sabre could act as a defensive hand held weapon. I don't think a forearm is very useful to block blows.
My favorite for that was the side handle baton which could be used along the forearm for defensive blocking and then deployed for offense.
A knife would be useful in extreme close quarter battle but not much good for deflecting blows of a weighted handheld weapon.
This is my issue with a long retrograde with the weapon systems that they had that day. Once the revolver was empty it was not easily reloaded and the close quarter battle was sure to follow once you stop at the river to cross. At that point it would inflict high cavalry casualties to attempt fire into the mixture of fighting Indians and soldiers from across the bank with the carbines.
AZ Ranger
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 23, 2011 7:31:56 GMT -6
What is a long retrograde AZ, a lance ?, similar to the ones used by the Light Brigade at Balaclava, I am sure the British (Lancers) and the German (Uhlans) used them up to WW1, and the Polish Uhlans/Lancers up to WW2.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 23, 2011 8:03:15 GMT -6
Ian: A retrograde is a very nice word meaning running like hell. It can be an orderly retrograde, planed with detachments left in contact and so forth, or it can be a forced retrograde, meaning you were run off your position. In either case it is an undesireable outcome in battle if you went in with the idea of winning. It can also be a ruse to draw you adversary into a trap.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 23, 2011 8:17:05 GMT -6
I have messed up there then Chuck, its a military term, jeez I thought it was a weapon, when AZ was talking about a side handled baton I was thinking along the lines of a weapon, I was busy the other day and a cold caller knocked at the door and asked if I wanted to buy a front loading automatic, I said yes, i would use it to shoot your ass off now leave me in peace, I didnt know that he was selling washing machines.
Ian.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 23, 2011 8:49:35 GMT -6
Don't be so antagonistic. They might still sell dictionaries door to door if cut and pasting words into Google is too taxing.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 23, 2011 8:57:34 GMT -6
Believe me DC, The amount of times I answer the phone each day to Asian guys flogging some kind of stuff is beyond a joke,
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Aug 23, 2011 12:07:29 GMT -6
1) You can fight on horseback.You can fight with fire arms but you cannot mix the two except fire a volley then draw sabres and charge. 2) The only option Custer had was to cross at MTCF.Advance on foot into the village with his scouts following burning everything as they advanced. 1) I would have to disagree here Richard. The guerrilla style forces in the ACW managed to combine the two very effectively using revolvers rather than carbines of course. 2) On that basis and given that the opportunity had presented itself, Custer's force could have charged into the village using revolvers but that would have required the warriors to panic and run before the revolvers were emptied. After that of course, it would have been back to dismounting and using carbines, the tactics prescribed by the army manadarins of the day. I hope all is well with you. Hunk |
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Post by markland on Aug 23, 2011 15:28:15 GMT -6
Here are a few of my opinions along with my observation of the size of cavalry uniforms as an indicator of the size of the troopers. There was nothing in their size to put fear in the Indian about closing in for close quarter battle. When fighting in close quarters against handheld weapons you need something to deflect the blows. I don't know if they used the carbine for that and the way it was worn would limit its use. The sabre could act as a defensive hand held weapon. I don't think a forearm is very useful to block blows. My favorite for that was the side handle baton which could be used along the forearm for defensive blocking and then deployed for offense. A knife would be useful in extreme close quarter battle but not much good for deflecting blows of a weighted handheld weapon. This is my issue with a long retrograde with the weapon systems that they had that day. Once the revolver was empty it was not easily reloaded and the close quarter battle was sure to follow once you stop at the river to cross. At that point it would inflict high cavalry casualties to attempt fire into the mixture of fighting Indians and soldiers from across the bank with the carbines. AZ Ranger Steve, excluding the officers and two enlisted men who I seem to have missed, the average height of all the enlisted men killed at LBH or died of wounds later was 66.377 inches. The mean was 69 and min/max was 62.50 & 72.50. Billy |
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Post by bc on Aug 23, 2011 22:42:20 GMT -6
Ian: A retrograde is a very nice word meaning running like hell. It can be an orderly retrograde, planed with detachments left in contact and so forth, or it can be a forced retrograde, meaning you were run off your position. In either case it is an undesireable outcome in battle if you went in with the idea of winning. It can also be a ruse to draw you adversary into a trap. Not to be confused with an E & E, a/k/a Escape and Evade, a/k/a every man for themselves till you get to the RP, a/k/a rally point. I doubt that they had an FM, a/k/a Field Manual, on the subject in 1876 but instead used the term skedaddle. However, if they would have had a Hussar from Kentuck writing doctrine back them, I'm sure the subject would have been covered beginning with step one, get drunk. bc |
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Post by quincannon on Aug 24, 2011 13:43:10 GMT -6
At which point they would form an invulnerable circular skirmish line and do the Mombo all the way back to Retreat Ford, once there switching formation to the Madison - Give me a big boss line etc etc. Boy an I dating myself. a/k/a getting to damned old. Somebody on the Steel Navy site asked the genesis of the term Peanut Gallery - and I knew the answer - frightening
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Post by benteen on Aug 24, 2011 14:07:41 GMT -6
quincannon, Yes Colonel getting old is a bummer, but it sure beats the alternative  Be Well Dan |
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Aug 24, 2011 16:40:58 GMT -6
quincannon, Yes Colonel, getting old is a bummer, but it sure beats the alternative Be Well Dan Dan, I guess Custer would vouch for your observation! Sincerely, Hunk |
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