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Post by biggordie on Jun 8, 2008 8:39:36 GMT -6
Thanks. I'll see what I can arrange for 2010, when I'll be going to LBH. Next year I'm off to England. This year, I'm saving for next year. And so it goes..........
Gordie
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Post by biggordie on Jun 8, 2008 8:32:55 GMT -6
kiktayokangi:
There are some copies available on Abebooks; but they start at $125.00. I'm guessing that this book is not so easy to find at an inexpensive price. Maybe you should try your local library [inter-library loan if necessary] before laying out any such sum.
Gordie
Gordie
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Post by biggordie on Jun 8, 2008 8:17:11 GMT -6
Evidence and testimony are not the same thing, as Steve and dc so ably point out, and much can be either lost or added during any translation -sometimes the translation is a paraphrasing of the entire statement into the words which the interpreter [note the distinction inherent between the words "translator" and "interpreter"] thinks fit the situation, as clw posted above. There are many risks in accepting NDN accounts without question; but it would be useless to try to find out what happened at LBH without them. The accounts of the survivors among the troops are every bit as suspect, and one must be equally wary of accepting them as gospel.
It seems to me that this is particularly true when it comes to the exact time of day. Most free-roaming NDNs had no need for knowing the EXACT time of day, not in the sense that Anglos did. "Noon" to us means 12:00 M [within a couple of minutes, depending upon how exact one wants, needs or chooses to be]. Had an NDN been interpreted as saying "Noon" he probably said something like "the sun was in the middle" or the "sun was about there" - and the interpreter provided what he thought the questioner would understand.
If I'm asking and NDN a question in November as to what time something in June happened, and he points to the heavens and says "the sun was about there," how do I equate that with a specific time of day in June? Especially if the event happened in June 30 years ago?
NDN accounts are rife with times such as "I was just starting my lunch" which might have been the same clock time as another source's "I was just finishing my breakfast" or another's "I had just come from the river from swimming." Or completely different - which is one of the reasons why the NDN times for when the fights started and ended cover equally as long a gamut as do the troops'. Sometime between March and August.
Anyone who has witnessed, or taken part in, the debate, here and elsewhere, over what time things happened from the military point of view - those guys did have watches and clocks and did need to know the time of day for some events [especially if you were the itinerist, whose times have become, in the eyes of those who know more than most of us, somewhat suspect] - where the most learned among the LBH scholars try to reconcile times, distances and speeds - are hereby invited to turn their attentions to, and try their hands at, a new project in which you can attempt to reconcile the time factors as they appear in the various NDN accounts.
And as we used to say in my neighborhood [when I was just a kid] "Good luck in your future endeavors." LOL
Regards,
Gordie
PS I wonder what the response would have been if one warrior had walked up to another on June 25, 1876, and asked "What time is it?" at about noon [or even if there was such a question in the Lakota vocabulary of the day].
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Post by biggordie on Jun 7, 2008 20:22:58 GMT -6
We're all hoping for the best, Emily. Me anyway.
Gordie
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Post by biggordie on Jun 7, 2008 20:19:43 GMT -6
Well, I wont be taking any hossback rides, unless a miracle occurs and my back becomes healed and pain-free; but I certainly hope to get to Pine Ridge while I can still travel at all, and I will take you up on that sweat lodge invitation at Grandpa's.
Gordie
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Post by biggordie on Jun 7, 2008 19:59:46 GMT -6
pohanka:
Your "error" was a slip of the fingers on the keyboard obviously, and hence hardly grievous, and I did not mean to imply that it was. As you are a new member here, I could not know your level of expertise. I was merely attempting to be helpful with some additional information, which you probably already had. Who knew?
There were actually several "usual" fords in the general area known as Ford D, at least four. Since the course of the river has been altered over the years, it is rather difficult to be exact as to where they all were. The fact is that one could cross that section of the river just about anywhere, but some crossings were easier in the getting in and getting out [banks not so high].
If you Google Earth that area, you can easily pick out the old river channel.
Regards,
Gordie
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Post by biggordie on Jun 7, 2008 19:49:18 GMT -6
Clair:
That is our main point of disagreement, and my main disagreement with most everyone else. While there might have been "no expectation" of Custer's being wiped out [by the military], in the circumstances as they were, he had no hope. His horses were only in good enough shape to get him to where he thought he had a chance of success [at Ford D] and part way back to where he had come from.
The warriors he thought were running as part of the fleeing village were in fact racing to get to the fords in the Ford D area before he did, and they beat him there. I don't think that it was a "very lucky thing" that these warriors defeated him in such a fashion. There were more than enough of them, and well enough armed, to do the job.
If you wanted to argue that Custer was unlucky in erring in his interpretation of what he saw from SSR; in having the warriors beat him to the fords; in having a number of returning hunters, augmented by warriors already across on his side of the river blocking his path to the north beyond Custer Hill; in having his ability to retreat to Blummer or back to Weir disappear because Reno had freed up more warriors to block his passage; and etc etc etc and blah blah blah - then I would tend to agree with you.
Of course, when I say that Custer was toast, that is in retrospect, and given what I know happened after he did cross MTC and head toward Ford D. Certainly he did not think he was going to be annihilated, or even beaten. He could probably never envisage such a thing as five companies of cavalry, commanded by anyone, especially himself, suffering such a disaster. Neither could any of his officers [except Reno and his lieutenants], and of course Benteen, who knew everything. If I'd been one of his officers, I'd probably have thought the same as he likely did.
Gordie
PS I wouldn't be too eager to attack Iran with that force. Iran is not Iraq, and their warplanes are not necessarily buried in the desert for protection. You'd need air cover, I'd think, not being a military man my ownself.
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Post by biggordie on Jun 7, 2008 19:26:49 GMT -6
pohanka:
You are absolutely correct. I posted part of Reno's report to the Chief of Ordnance on this subject somewhere on these boards, as part of one of numerous discussions on the topic [things tend to get repeated as new people join the forum]. If you dig around, you'll likely find it. Probably under my harpskiddie persona.
Regards,
Gordie
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Post by biggordie on Jun 6, 2008 20:18:38 GMT -6
kiktayokangi:
Most of the discussions and discussers from this forum will be found on the new forum at www. American-Tribes.com. You might want to check it out and become a member. You will be welcomed with open arms.
Gordie
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Post by biggordie on Jun 6, 2008 19:56:53 GMT -6
Kathlene:
Congratulations!! Just one more for fifty - wow!!!
Your Northern Pal
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Post by biggordie on Jun 6, 2008 19:45:17 GMT -6
pohanka:
The Cheyenne ford is generally known as Ford D, which is what you undoubtedly meant to say. Ford A is designated as the ford which Reno first crossed into the valley [near the mouth of Ash Creek]. Ford B is the MTC ford. Ford C is the ford at the foot of Deep Ravine [sometimes called Crazy Horse Ravine and Crazy Horse ford - not to be confused with the ford near HWY 212 which some believe - mistakenly - that Crazy Horse crossed to come at Custer from the northwest/north/ northeast]. I was introduced to Ford D in 1960 by a group of Cheyenne men.
Depending upon where you think Cemetery Ridge is/was, and the flat there upon which JSIT said that Custer stopped for twenty minutes or so, Custer would not have been in view of Benteen, should the latter actually have asked Martin where Custer had gone and had attempted to follow his trail [assuming that Reno had not retreated and was not, as he in fact was, on the bluffs in a somewhat discomfited state].
There's a convoluted sentence for you.
Regards,
Gordie
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Post by biggordie on Jun 6, 2008 9:16:42 GMT -6
Who has heard the stories of those who purposely missed their flights because they had premonitions of disaster - visions or dreams or whatever - when nothing actually happened. Hands?
Retrovision is a wondrous thing [remember when Aunt Sally had her palm read, and the Gypsy said she would take a trip? And ten years later she did? Wowie, Zowie, Kerpowie].
Which is not to say that there are no such things as magic or magical happenings or visions which do come true or unexplained dealies or UFOs or..............................
The "sue" in "sue campaign" was obviously a typo , and should have been capitalized thusly, Sue campaign. The reference was to the wooing of Sioux City Sue who was known for her remarkable beauty [golden hair and eyes of blue - how those eyes could flash at you!!] and for the fact that she never cracked a mirror when fixing her golden hair, although she once did have a corn on her right little toe [which otherwise was perfectly formed, as were her dainty feet, and the rest of her for that matter].
There ain't no gal as true as my sweet Sioux City Sue [the campaign was successful].
You're welcome............
Gordie
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Post by biggordie on Jun 6, 2008 8:57:36 GMT -6
Clair:
Had Custer crossed at MTC ford, HE would have been the one caught in the vise - between the warriors from the northern camps and those who had defeated Reno.
Trapping alerted warriors would have been much like tightening a vise on a scoop of ice cream - most of it will not be enclosed between the jaws.
Custer was basically toast once he went past MTC, even if he had simply continued on north in an attempt to join Terry. His horses would never have made it very far, especially if he had come down Ash Creek at the speed which Fred thinks he did .
One USMC Recon team, twelve helicopter gunships, and four squadrons from Clair's old armored regiment [or even the modern Seventh] should do the job, with some engineers to throw a bridge over the LBH at Ford A. The Recon team could remain in situ atop Weir Point and direct the balance.
Gordie
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Post by biggordie on Jun 6, 2008 8:38:08 GMT -6
June 6, 1956 - biggordie flunks Grade 13 Trigonometry [even after they lowered the pass mark to 30, because 90% of those who wrote it had flunked]. Neither the book nor the movie did very well.
On a more serious note, thanks to all those who stormed ashore on D Day - the Americans, British, French and Canadians - many of whom gave their lives so that I could lead the life I led. And all of you, yours.
Gordie
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Post by biggordie on Jun 5, 2008 23:59:47 GMT -6
Diane:
What can one say?!?!? I'm sure that every family has a story that rings the same bells as this one. As someone once wrote "There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio........"
Gordie
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