"children and dogs"

[shatonska]

ok when they first saw the village they saw only "children and dogs" but then we have 900 warriors going south and at least 8000 people going north while hundreds of horses were brought into the village , this is the image Custer saw when he was on the ridges over the ford , 20 minutes after the first sightning , the village was a complete mess of powder and warriors going everywhere , that's why custer decided not to charge , or you think all the people warriors and horses came from nowhere appeared and disappeared on the filed like ghosts ?

custer saw huindreds of warriors coming with horses from the north while thousands of non-coms were going north , it is logical not to charge into warriors and going north , east of the river , trying to take hostages

[Dark Cloud]

By thumb and guesstimate, it's about 3/4 of a mile from Weir Point to the nearest part of the village on the west bank. It's dubious if the clarity of children and dogs would appear in bulk in any section of the village absent adults, but it's equally dubious that taking hostages would 1.)work (it didn't at the Washita, since they quivered in fear of attack till the end....)or 2.) canning surprise and speed and jogging in full view along the east bank is an intelligent way to achieve such a dubious goal.

The reasons you give not to charge - confusion in the camp - is arguably a very good reason to charge, for not only could the soldiers not see what was going on, neither could the tribes who had no command structure to pull together from a rout or panic when they cannot see what's going on. If, however, the numbers were absurdly against the cavalry anyway, then the question arises of what he thought he was doing anyway.

Like being unable to show the location and procedures Reno should have done to reduce casualties in the charge/retreat, I'd like to see where had this hostage taking had protected cavalry from attacks by other tribes in large villages whose civvies had casualties, the situation at LBH. Smaller actions, sure, maybe. But it's repeated and given the furrowed brow nods here as if it's a surety that was Custer's intent. It surely is not.

It's the desperation of proving pro-active intent undercut by betrayal that motivates the Custerphiles (and this is their designating mark, not their self evaluation) which necessitates a long , well fought battle featuring pages and footnotes of spiffy military manuever which is highly unlikely.

[George Mabry]

Shatonska,

I can understand Custer wanting cut off any fleeing villagers but his supposed plan to start taking hostages before the fight even starts is or at the beginning of the battle is, in my opinion, farfetched.

Custer had a battle to fight first and foremost. Once the warriors are defeated, then you have a possibility of taking hostages. What I'm trying to say is, first things first. Remember, to take a hostage, the hostage as to submit to your authority. That generally takes a whuppin'.

George

[shatonska]

georgemabry said:

Shatonska,

I can understand Custer wanting cut off any fleeing villagers but his supposed plan to start taking hostages before the fight even starts is or at the beginning of the battle is, in my opinion, farfetched.

Custer had a battle to fight first and foremost. Once the warriors are defeated, then you have a possibility of taking hostages. What I'm trying to say is, first things first. Remember, to take a hostage, the hostage as to submit to your authority. That generally takes a whuppin'.

George

but custer realized that warriors were too much to be defeated by his 5 companies , maybe he went north only to check the gound for the next move

darkcloud , how do you know custer saw the village from weir point ? i said the first time , around reno hill , and maybe custer went on sharpshooter ridge , not weir point

[shan]

Like many others I have a problem with the evidence given by many of those who were there on the ground that day, Curley being prime, but Martin, in this case. Quite where he and Custer viewed this almost idealic, relaxed camp is hard to say, I'm presuming it was from somewhere just beyond what was to become Reno's defensive position, although some say Sharpshooter, whilst others think Weir Point. I know the evidence is confusing, but if we take it that they were viewing this as Reno was starting his charge down the valley, firstly the Arikari scouts were some way ahead of this charge looking for Sioux ponies, secondly there seems to be a deal of evidence that several Indians were hurrying into the camp shouting warnings, and thirdly, the boys herding the horses that were down there at that end of the village were desperately trying to herd them out of the way. Now either Custer was up on the bluffs a deal earlier than we had imagined, or he, and Martin were viewing a Northern part of the camp from further on, at least from Weir if not further.
Like others, I have a problem with Martin, and like others I find myself using him, and it has to be said, the testimony of other witnesses, when it suits me, thus I have never been able to accept his children and dogs evidence, and yet I somehow want to believe his story of seeing part of Custer's force moving back from the river. It's one of the many pitfalls of the subject that one has to be aware of.
Shan

[shatonska]

that martini's account is impossible or illogical because it means that custer retreated from the ford while reno was in the first part of his fight (as martini said), if it is so how can we explain that warriors went against reno and not against custer ? warriors who were late like crazy horse didn't saw custer at the Mt ford or on the ridges over it , Custer arrived there later right when the village was in the mess of warriors going south and non-coms going north , like many warriors said : they were late for reno when they saw custer coming ( not only cheyennes but oglalas too , shave elk)
i think martini never turned back to watch , as he said in his first account or maybe he saw custer moving from the coulee on the ridges maybe facing woolf thoot little skirmish ( martini horse maybe wounded by a far shoot by wholf thoot band), after martini left custer divided the companies , 3 companies had to move on the ridge to let the two companies in the coulee to pass in front to go to the ford

[PhillyBlair]

Shatonska -- good topic.

Shatonska and Shan -- Obviously, Martin is the key witness here, and Shan, you and I are alike in our desire to accept Martin on some points while rejecting him on others. If you think about it, that doesn't make him any different from any other witness we have. One thing to add here -- I have never believed that Martin saw the village WITH Custer. Martin was not even trusted to deliver an oral message, so I've never bought into his story of being several feet from Custer at all times, even if he was his orderly that day. We know that Custer concealed his troops behind the ridge. I believe Martin was with them and never saw anything WITH Custer.

Now, let's take this a step further from Martin's perspective -- Martin hears Custer say, "We caught 'em napping boys!" and is then given his message. While on his way to Benteen he looks back from atop the ridge and sees the noncom's fleeing (children, dogs, etc.). In his mind the village is caught by surprise (Custer's words) and he witnesses Indians "skedaddling", which he relays to Benteen.

Just my take on it, and yes, I know I'm picking and choosing what I want to believe from Martin.

[AZ Ranger]

Now, let's take this a step further from Martin's perspective -- Martin hears Custer say, "We caught 'em napping boys!" and is then given his message. While on his way to Benteen he looks back from atop the ridge and sees the noncom's fleeing (children, dogs, etc.). In his mind the village is caught by surprise (Custer's words) and he witnesses Indians "skedaddling", which he relays to Benteen.

Just my take on it, and yes, I know I'm picking and choosing what I want to believe from Martin.

Just taking the written message and the " We caught 'em napping" statement, one wants troops to move up and secure the ammunition the other suggests surprise and fleeing children, dogs, etc. Since Reno is or is shortly to be engaged then who would need more troops and ammunition?

[PhillyBlair]

That would certainly vindicate Benteen, wouldn't it?

[shan]

shatonska,
I think if Martin managed to look back as he rode off with his message and see children, women dogs etc scattering, he must have had amazing eyesight, for one thing the bluffs would be hiding the most Southerly part of the camp from him until he got South of Weir, and looking back North, the bluffs that way would have hidden everything until North of MTF, then with the distance and the dust raised by the panicking non-coms, it would be very hard to differentiate individuals.
But I do agree with you about the fact that non of the warriors heading South to fight Reno from that Northerly end of the camp say they were aware of Custer, in which case where was he?
He couldn't have yet ridden up onto the high ridges as they would have seen him, I suppose his force may have been in MTC on their way down to the ford, but these warriors were streaming South for quite some time before anyone became aware of Custer, so what was he doing? Once again it's unlikely that the shot that hit Martins horse came from Wolf Tooth's band, for if Custer was skirmishing with them around the time Martin left, then surely warriors across the river would have become aware of that.
Shan

[Dark Cloud]

Gray confuses things by refusing to see the difference between being "on the hill" and being on the top of the hill, which I attribute to impairment of his last years. Because Martin describes himself as being on the hill but later does not include himself at the top, Gray thinks it a conflict of testimony. It probably isn't. There are lots of things like this when people try to get picky.

Lorenzo, we don't know warriors didn't go against Custer at the ford. And in any case, Martin does not say he saw Custer attack, he left before that as they were heading north down Cedar Coulee to MTC, two terms he probably conflated or confused in later life in fact or memory. In later stories he claimed he saw the blanket waving Indians and all, but that wasn't at the ford.

In any case, Custer had provided no support for Reno an hour after Reno left to attack.