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Post by mcaryf on Aug 23, 2006 4:04:57 GMT -6
Studying Godfrey's testimony to the RCOI he clearly indicates that his unit was involved in trying to get mules out of the Morass: "some of them plunged into the Morass; and we had some difficulty in getting many of them out." He then further explains that there was rivalry between the various troops to get their own mules ahead and these particular mules that were ahead and plunged in were allocated to his troop. He also gives the longest estimate for time at the Morass as being up to 30 minutes.
I also see in "Custers Luck" a suggestion that Weir, who wanted to set off from the Morass towards the sound of firing, tried to get Godfrey's support to do so but failed and so set off on his own.
One possible interpretation of these two pieces of iinformation is that it was Godfrey causing the delay at the Morass by having his men try to help get "his" mules free from the Morass. After all he would not want to see his personal supplies bogged down forever!
I also see in Camp that Girard claims to have spoken to a young officer who was going to tell it how it was at the RCOI but later did not do so because of pressure exerted on him. Could this have been Godfrey feeling guilty because it was his fault that Benteen's unit delayed at the Morass?
In order to help fix Benteen's timeline it would be helpful to know where he actually met Martini, I have seen a variety of evidence for this ranging from before Lone Tepi to after Benteen reached the point where Custer and Reno's trails split. Is there a reasnably conclusive modern view as to where this was? I still do not yet have my ordered copy of Gray - it must be coming by paddle steamer across the Atlantic!
Regards
Mike
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Post by harpskiddie on Aug 23, 2006 6:35:47 GMT -6
mccaryf:
Godfrey also mentions only two that belonged to his company, stating that the battalion spent 20 to 30 minutes there. Benteen said less than 15, Edgerly 8 to 10.
I don't know where Stewart got the information to suggest that Weir tried to Get Godfrey's support for moving ahead. Godfrey seemed to have taken umbrage at Weir's doing so, with his "his proper place was second" comment.
Godfrey says that Weir grew impatient because of hearing firing up ahead, and moved out without orders. I don't think anybody heard any firing at the morass, because it was too soon to do so. My take is that Weir simply grew impatient at the delay in watering. And that is why I think it took closer to a half hour than not.
It would have been of advantage to Benteen to overestimate the stop time by blaming it on his command having to spend X amount of time extricating mules from the morass. That he did not do so is to his credit. I do not see the halt there, which I estimate as about 25 minutes, i.e. from H1405 to H1430, as overly long, because I doubt that the watering spot was capable of being used by three companies at a time. Weir obviously did.
Knipe arrived at approximately H1535, just after Benteen had left the Lone Tepee site, where I believe he had stopped again to refresh his horses. Martini met Benteen at the flat, near where the North Fork joins Ash Creek at about H1550.
I am not sure that this timeline could be called "a reasonably conclusive modern view" but I am sure that it is very accurate, based upon the evidence and the ground, although I would never claim it to be a minute by minute timetable.
As to Fred's talking to a young unnamed officer, it may have happened or maybe not. Who knows? It might have been any of a number of them. Had it been Godfrey, I doubt that it had anything to do with a bothersome conscience.
If you'd like a copy of ny "paper" on Benteen's March, I'll make you the same offer I made someone else on another thread. Just Email me your mailing address, and I'll mail you one
biggordie@hotmail.com[
Gordie
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 23, 2006 7:26:36 GMT -6
Hi Harpskiddie
I have e-mailed you re your kind offer.
The reason I was querying the Martini venue is because in Custers Luck and Custer in 76, I found some suggestions that Benteen's Battn split up when it reached the parting of the trails between Reno and Custer with Godfrey going one way and Weir the other. It is strange that Martini is not mentioned in the context of sorting out which way to go so I was wondering if in fact he had not reached them by then.
Regards
Mike
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Post by harpskiddie on Aug 23, 2006 14:14:34 GMT -6
Mike:
The ignoring of Martini is mentioned in my paper, which I'll mail in a week. This is another point in the action where Weir seems to have taken the initiative.
Don't worry about the postage - as we say "A mere Bagashells." You can stand me a pint and a pie next time I'm in Jolly Olde, if I live long enough to get back there.
Best to you
Gordie
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 24, 2006 6:27:28 GMT -6
Weir seems to have been someone who didn't wait for orders but acted on his own. He left Benteen at the morass and left Reno Hill on his own. Both times he could have jeopardized the rest of the command.
Leaving Reno Hill without orders/permission almost cost him and his men their lives. When Indians spotted Weir he turned and ran, leaving behind a wounded soldier. If it wasn't for Godfrey setting up skirmishers the Weir Retreat could have turned into the Weir Rout.
Once on Reno Hill Weir seems to have disappeared.
His actions should be questioned just as much as other officers who survived.
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Post by harpskiddie on Aug 24, 2006 11:12:53 GMT -6
Horse:
I don't take issue with you there. My noting that Weir took initiative is not meant to be a commendation, simply an observation. Obviously he was impatient at what he apparently perceived to be dawdling. At the "fork" in the trail, for example, mentioned above, Gibson said that there was some question as to which trail they should follow - Benteen's "Here we have the two horns of a dilemma" - which Weir answered by moving off on the left hand one [Reno's].
History is rife with instances of men who took initiative and had their rear-ends handed to them. Fetterman at Phil Kearny comes to mind immediately. Grattan [?] and the Morman Cow Incident. Lewis Edward Nolan at Balaclava. The guys who set up the ad hoc barricade to stop the Nez Perce. Gordie proposing to his future-and-ex wife.
History is also rife with almost-what-if-woulda-shoulda-coulda-if only. That's one of the reasons we're all here, and I don't just mean on this board.
Gordie
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 24, 2006 11:43:44 GMT -6
No problem with a soldier taking the initiative IF there is no other options. At the time Weir took off from the Morass there was no immediate danger to the Benteen command and no one knew exactly where Custer was or what lay ahead.
Once on Reno Hill Weir discussed going to Custer. He later told Edgerly that he got no orders or even asked for permission. He left on his own. Considering that Reno had just been routed and suffered heavy casualties he was in more need of assistance than Custer . . . with again no one knowing exactly where Custer was or the circumstances.
Granted someone should have made some decision about Custer . . . but it was not Weir's position to do so . . . and by taking the initiative at the wrong moment(s) he could have jeopardized the remaining command.
And once he did go off on his own he turned and ran when he should have set up some type of defensive retreat. If it wasn't for Godfrey Weir's action could have resulted in even more tragedy at the LBH.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Aug 24, 2006 13:06:02 GMT -6
Wouldn't a big part of Weir's actions be because he was part of the so-called 'Custer Clan' and really had his personal priorities to GAC rather than Reno, Benteen, his troops, or the army? He most likely would have preferred to be in the Custer Battalion than with anyone else anyway, I think (although that day it would have been a bad choice for sure!).
Jas~
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 24, 2006 13:14:11 GMT -6
Jas:
Weir's was not in a position to make decisions while under Benteen's command. Whether he was part of the Custer Clan should not be used to exonerate him of leaving his post without orders and jeopardizing not only himself but the rest of the command.
If we use the Custer Clan as an excuse for Weir then we can use the Anti-Custer Clan for Benteen.
One thing I know of has never been brought out. What exactly did Weir say to Benteen & Reno in regards to going to Custer?
All we know is from Edgerly who stated that Weir talked to Benteen/Reno but later told him that Weir never asked for permission or received orders to go to Custer.
Any one got any thing on that?
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Post by harpskiddie on Aug 24, 2006 16:39:16 GMT -6
Horse:
So far as I know, the only person who left any record of what Weir said to Reno was the ubiquitous Theodore Goldin, who in 1904 wrote to Brady: "As we were standing on the bluffs looking down into the valley, I heard some loud talk near me, and turning in that direction, I heard Capt. Weir say: 'Well, by God, if you won't go, I will, and if we ever live to get out of here, someone will suffer for this.'"
To Fred Dustin in 1932, he softened this: "I do believe I did state in the article that there was some sort of an altercation between Weir and Reno, relative to a forward movement to locate and aid Custer. I did not hear it, as it was just about over when I climbed the hill.....I heard some loud talking as I approached the place where the officers were gathered, to report my escape, but what it was, I cannot say. All I know is just as I came up, Weir separated himself from the group, evidently laboring under considerable excitement....."
Martin suposedly told Graham, for his 1923 Cavalry Journal article:".........Captain Weir had some words with Colonel Reno, and I could tell by the way he was acting that he was excited and angry. He waved his arms and gestured and pointed down the river. Then we heard some volleys [Reno didn't hear them, you'll recall], and Captain Weir jumped on his horse and started down the river all alone."
Gordie
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Post by harpskiddie on Aug 24, 2006 17:08:20 GMT -6
Let me quickly correct myself, before someone else does it for me. I skipped a paragraph when I was reading my notes.
Private John Fox of Weir's Company D told Walter Camp that he witnessed a similar scene:"says he heard a conversation beween Weir and Reno, before D Company went out. He says Weir remarked 'Custer must be around here somewhere, and we ought to go to him.' Reno said: 'We are surrounded by Indians, and we ought to remain here.' Weir said: 'Well, if no one else goes to Custer, I will go.' Reno replied: 'No. You cannot go - for if you try to do it, you will get killed, and your Company with you.' Fox says Reno appeared to be intoxicated, or partially so. He says that Moylan and Benteen stood by and heard what Weir said, and they did not seem to approve of Weir going, and talked as though to discourage him. Finally, Weir said that he was going anyhow, and Reno did not object."
Apparently neither did Benteen, who could also have ordered Weir to stay where he was, although I am not at all sure that he was actually there. In his first narrative, Benteen wrote that: "After a few words with Col. Reno [after Reno came back from his side trip to Benny Hodgson's body], I inquired as to the whereabouts of 'D' Troop of my battn,. and was informed that Capt. Weir had, without orders [not against orders], gone down the river..."
Don't ask me why Benteen, by his own admission, didn't know where one of his assigned companies was!! That's one of the reasons, but only one, why I titled that chapter "Chaos On The Hill And The Weir Advance."
Gordie
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 25, 2006 9:50:54 GMT -6
Edgerly stated that Weir told him that he had no orders or received permission to go look for Custer . . . so we have to assume that Weir decided to go on his own. Fully understandable but a dangerous move which may have jeopardized the remaining members of the 7th.
Goldin is unreliable and anything he says, whether plausible or not needs to be questioned.
As for Fox's statement about Reno being drunk, he could have been mistaken for Reno being paniced, frightened, loss of mental faculty, etc.
If only Weir hadn't been such a troubled soul . . . what he saw when he approached the Custer fight and what he said to Reno/Benteen may have provided more clues to the LBH.
As for Benteen not knowing about Weir leaving . . . why would he assume anyone left? He did not give orders to do so.
Undoubtedly there was confusion and disorganization on Reno Hill when Benteen arrived. Reno had been routed with heavy casualties . . . Custer failed to give Reno the promised support . . . there was gunfire down river . . . Custer was who knows where and Weir takes off threatening the safety of the remaining command. Then we have the piece meal advance of the remaining Reno/Benteen command following after Weir who by then was running back leaving behind a wounded man and no skirmishers to protect the retreat. Godfrey seemed to be the only one cool enough to set up skirmishers and save the remaining members of the 7th.
Not many who deserve a gold star for their performance at the LBH.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 25, 2006 10:02:47 GMT -6
I'd like to repeat something I've complained about before and nobody has picked up on it. When Benteen arrives on Reno Hill and sees what a fire sale it was, and right away Weir gets melodramatic and likely/may not have defied orders and rode off on his own, Benteen or Reno can get everyone in that cooperative, all-for-one mind set by arresting/shooting Weir and dividing the command OR they, by which I mean Benteen, can draw a bigger circle to include everyone till the moment's over and keep it together before the men.
It strikes me there were moments it could have gone either way, and I think looking at it that way Benteen defined leadership: sometimes standing in front of the moving parade and guiding its course later, sometimes making it happen, sometimes letting it be. I suspect, not being a soldier, that many good combat leaders are like that: doing what works at the time. Pat it into shape later. It's not glory but it's survival and success.
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Post by Hostler on Sept 10, 2006 18:55:52 GMT -6
Harpskiddie hits on an issue that has intrigued me for years. Weir's actions at the fork in the trail, and his behavior after the battle until his death. After Benteen's remark "Here we have the two horns of a dilemma" Weir takes it upon himself to take the left trail. This turns out to be Reno's trail. Benteen follows with his detachment. If Weir had taken the trail off to the right they likely would have ended up coming in on the Custer portion of the battle. Weir must have undoubtedly realized this at some point, and may have blamed himself for the non-rescue of Custer. This could explain his almost panicky attempt to go from Reno Hill to Custer's aid, as well as his personality disorder after the battle until his death. He could have been thinking on Reno Hill, that Custer was going to blame him for jumping the gun and leading Benteen astray. To my way of thinking, of all the Officers involved, Weir was the most out of control of any on that day and that includes Reno. Weir's actions the entire day were all counter-productive and almost cost the loss of the whole battalion on Reno Hill were it not for Godfrey and Benteen.
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Post by harpskiddie on Sept 10, 2006 22:26:10 GMT -6
Hostler:
That Weir was a tortured soul, there is no doubt - but I don't think that it had anything to do with taking the left hand trail. It was not so long after, that the battalion was motioned up to the bluff tops by the three Crow scouts, and thence went to Reno, who had already been up there for about 10 or 15 minutes. Had Benteen asked Martin which way they should go, which he did not, they still would have arrived after Reno had reached the hilltop, and well after Custer was out of view.
There are lots of what-ifs that can be considered and debated, ad nauseum if not ad infinitum, and there is not much profit in doing so. It is hard enough to try to figure out what did happen, never mind what might have happened.
Gordie
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