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Post by d o harris on Aug 1, 2006 13:29:12 GMT -6
AZ---maybe we can have a discussion after all. Actually, Gray said Gibson had to go at least a half mile farther to reach the crest of the next line of hills. Assuming scouting justifies a 3 mph rate, at what point do you assume the scout ended? Where, exactly, was Benteen? Gray said Benteen arrived in the valley of No Name Creek and turned down it at 1:20. He uses the same time for Gibson to determine there were no Indians to be seen, which effectively ended the scout, did it not? Benteen then advances four miles to the main trail at an average speed of 3.32 MPH---the same rate at which he supposedly traversed the rugged, hilly terrain. It took 72 minutes to reach the trail. If he had immediately advanced at a trot he could have cut 32 minutes off that time. Why didn't he? He did trot a short distance to the morass when it appeared that pack train would get ahead of him of the trail. From the morass to Reno Hill was a distance of 5 1/2 miles. It took Benteen 1 hr. 23 minutes to cover the ground, an average of 4 MPH. At a non-exhausting 6 MPH trot he could have saved another 28 minutes. This is a full hour he lost because he walked, rather than trotted.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 1, 2006 13:51:17 GMT -6
It's already blown out of the water by a lack of map or definitive route. Gray could well be right, but neither he nor you nor anyone can prove it. As I claim no time, no route, it's for you to prove, having claimed the positive. Negatives cannot be proven, as you know. That's what I mean by neither in logic nor law.
In any case, Gray agrees with me, as no doubt you forgot to meniton. Page 265: "To conclude this timing is feasible would be rash, however, for the calculation is based upon his interpolated time of arrival at No-Name Creek and the assumption that neither the terrain nor waiting for Gibson to reporte enforced delay thereafter."
But it doesn't mean he lagged anyway, given the harsh trail they followed and that attested to by Godfrey, Gibson, and Benteen. His horses hadn't been watered since 8PM night previous, and that in water many could not drink. Reno and Custer and the train followed a creek down, although dry in the upper reaches, we're told.
Further, and most important, there is no reason to think Benteen or Reno would prefer their peers be slaughtered rather than saving them. That's a baseless, stupid, and sleazy accusation.
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Post by analyst on Aug 1, 2006 14:13:00 GMT -6
AZ Ranger: Good point, well substantiated, about Gibson's (5 or 6 men) detachment. And in fact they did go about five miles to the second ridge of bluffs. However, Benteen himself went no where near that far with his main body of troops.
d o harris - You have hit the nail precisely on the head. Wish I would have said that!
Gray is one heck of a researcher. Most of his evidence is very difficult to refute. As can be seen these timelines are quite precise for the time involved. I could be wrong but I believe Custer's command was using Chicago time, or am I mistaken? It is somewhat sad so much of this casts Benteen in a very poor light in following orders and supporting Custer. But, facts are facts.
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Post by analyst on Aug 1, 2006 14:28:56 GMT -6
(SIGH) DC: You did not finish the quote on P.265 you use. "But surely a fast courier could have overtaken Custer at the lone teepee." Thus it reverses your implied meaning. And makes you a fabricator once again! Did anyone mention wanting Reno's and Benteen's peers slaughtered? I must have missed that one.
Don't thank me for pointing out your error and faulty presentation, it was a pleasure!
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 1, 2006 16:00:22 GMT -6
D O Harris-- I am relying solely on Gray and not making any judgment to his accuracy. I believe that Benteen is in a scouting mode until he cuts Custer's trail as Gray states "completing his off-trail scout." Whether it 3.75 or further due to Gibson's travel there is nothing dawdling about a scout 3.32 to 3.53 mph (includes Gibson 1/2 mile).
The general impression is that Benteen dawdled after learning of Custer's order. I find no evidence in Gray's for that on page 272 under Benteen's Battalion. From the Unit Event of Sgt Kanipe with Custer's message to reaches Reno Hill the mph column shows 4.7, 7.5,7.5, and 6.0.
AZ Ranger
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 1, 2006 16:38:59 GMT -6
Hi DOH
Since you have Gray's book and I do not, I repeat my request for you to give us Gray's time for Custer moving from the Morass to the Bluffs so I can compare it with the detail you have given here for Benteen:
From the Morass to Reno Hill was a distance of 5 1/2 miles. It took Benteen 1 hr. 23 minutes to cover the ground, an average of 4 MPH. At a non-exhausting 6 MPH trot he could have saved another 28 minutes. This is a full hour he lost because he walked, rather than trotted
I would also be particularly interested in what Gray has to say about Boston Custer. You may have seen the quotes that Elisabeth has unearthed which show that Boston returned from being with GAC to the pack train to acquire a new horse. How does Gray's analysis of positions and sightings match up with whether Boston Custer should be seen or not by Benteen's Battalion on his way back to the train?
Regards
Mike
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 1, 2006 18:09:07 GMT -6
Mike
Gray has Boston with McDougall and leaving the divide halt at 12:12 PM. After Benteen's off-trail scout ended he was on the Custer Trail. He spotted the pack train about 1 mile or less behind. About the same time Boston overtook Benteen. So Boston had left the packtrain before Benteen hit trail. This eliminates Benteen from being able to see Boston heading to the pack train if it happened.
AZ Ranger
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 1, 2006 18:26:58 GMT -6
Hi AZRanger
I was being slightly disingenuous in asking DOH about Boston because I was already aware that Gray's research did not seem to have uncovered the fact that evidence indicates Boston made a journey to and from the packtrain. It is an interesting point because it does have some significance for Benteen's timeline as it means he probably cannot be in line of sight when Boston passes by on his way back and so Benteen may not have been where Gray places him.
It seems I may have to acquire Gray's book after all - fortunately I have a birthday in two weeks so I can start dropping hints to the family!
Regards
Mike
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 1, 2006 18:38:57 GMT -6
Hi Mike
I think it only shows that Benteen was not where he could observe Boston traveling to the packtrain but he does see him traveling in the direction of Custer coming from the direction consistent with leaving the packtrain.
AZ Ranger
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 2, 2006 2:43:47 GMT -6
Hi AZ Ranger
The point is to see if it can be determined when Boston was passing the point where Benteen hit the trail on the way back to the train because this helps fix an earliest time before Benteen can be in sight from the trail. Boston's time can be judged if we can fix the point where he left GAC. My current assessment is that it would have been from the first Lone Tepee and this probably slightly pushes back Benteen's appearance time. Whether this is good or bad for Benteen's reputation I am not sure. It would mean he took slightly longer on the scout but was somewhat quicker from the Morass.
Regards
Mike
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 2, 2006 8:46:32 GMT -6
Benteen's rep isn't threatened. We don't actually know where 'the' Lone Tipi was, or the morass. We don't know that story of Boston to be true. We don't know his speed if it was true. We don't know how long he took to change mounts and saddle another horse. We have, in fact, nothing actually known to base mathematical calculations of time upon except Gray's estimated sighting by Benteen and Martin's meeting and Kanipe's NON meeting.
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Post by blaque on Aug 2, 2006 13:14:56 GMT -6
From Godfrey’s narrative, we can deduct that the last line of bluffs reached by Gibson was only 3 or 4 miles away. But look at this Edgerly letter: "We were in Benteen’s battalion and our orders were to go over to the left […] Mr. Gibson was sent and after we went about two or three miles we found it impracticable to keep to the left and came down in the valley. (Lt. Edgerly to his wife Gracie, Yellowstone Depot, July 4, 1876). Edgerly remembered that Custer, while instructing Benteen to move off to the left, was “indicating an angle of about 35 or 40 degrees from the direction of the village”. We might deduct fom this that Custer did not intend Benteen to become widely separated from the rest of the regiment. What I mean is that perhaps Gibson was not mistaken when he reported having rode 5 or 6 miles to a line of bluffs in order to carry out his scout; neither was Benteen, as we know he usually was well in advance of his men. But very likely the bulk of the command did not march so many miles, or so far away, as Gibson. As Edgerly told in 1881, “the battalion skirted the hills looking for a chance to break through the chain without giving the horses and men a too fatiguing climb. This course brought us to the right and nearly with Reno’s trail in less than an hour”. I think that Edgerly’s impression is that the battalion was not wide separated from the main trail. Likewise Godfrey, in his 1876 Diary, said nothing about a long march, climbing hills or jaded horses. In his long entry for June 24/25, he only says that they moved “above the creek valley down which the main command of General Custer was marching. After wandering among the hills without any probability of accomplishing anything we went into the valley”. The fact that in his Century article he stated that “during this march on the left we could see occasionally the battalion under Custer […and] heard loud cheering” seems to confirm Edgerly’s view that the battalion did not move as far away as Gibson.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 2, 2006 13:42:40 GMT -6
Godfrey, by the time of the Century Magazine article, is saying: "Many of our horses were greatly jaded by the climbing and descending...." and (page 138, Custer Myth) describes an awful initial assault on the hills gradually driving them to the right "until we came in sight of" the trail towards the end. He thinks Gibson was sent ahead to save all the horses. I don't think it deceptive that they may actually have thought it a five mile jaunt if it was not. But it could have been.
I remain puzzled by the degrees of direction Custer gave. What village is he referring to? 40 degrees from the main village on the west bank? Or 40 degrees from the Lone Tipi group? Because if the former, they went too far to the south, didn't they? But this is an Edgerly guess.
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Post by mcaryf on Aug 3, 2006 10:09:43 GMT -6
It starts to be probable that Benteen's mission was less of a scout and more of a flanking move that was initiated too early.
After all it does not make much sense to use a whole battalion for scouting when Custer had plenty of real scouts he could deploy for that job.
Regards
Mike
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 3, 2006 10:38:05 GMT -6
Then again as some say Benteen's scout was to be quick and not far flung so he wouldn't need scouts or a doctor.
Benteen told Gibson the gist of the orders . . . and it was a scout, nothing about a flank attack. What if he did see Indians? . . . would Benteen have bothered going after a small group of Indians going in the opposite direction of the camp which would have been a waste of his 125 man command?
That would have caused Benteen's command to be entirely of no use to Custer and/or Reno.
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