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Post by crzhrs on Jul 28, 2006 6:33:47 GMT -6
Well I'm not slack jawed at my age. My jaw works wonderfully . . . I even have my own teeth.
The point about the OK FOR CUSTER was the standard procedure in pushing the horses. Pushing them so hard to get some where would take a lot out of them, especially in the situation at the LBH where the horses had already been a long march with poor water and possibly insuffient feed.
According to Godfrey, many of the horses on Benteen's scout were tiring (jaded) and lagging behind . . . it would have more than likely finished them by gallopping to Custer and made them useless in any kind of support let alone attack or chasing Indians.
Custer knew the procedure and followed it in rescuing Hamilton and Benteen followed it when returning from his scout.
PS: Once Benteen heard gunfiring I believe he sped up the horses and IF he had started back to Custer he may have sped them up ONCE he knew what the situation was.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 28, 2006 9:12:35 GMT -6
George -- I thought one of the reasons we did what we did was so "SJC" had the freedom to express themselves?
Maybe I missed the point of this thread but I believe it went to the rate of travel of Benteen after receiving the order. In that case moving miles is better accomplished at the trot rather a gallop.
Semper Fi AZ Ranger
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Post by markland on Jul 28, 2006 9:40:28 GMT -6
George -- I thought one of the reasons we did what we did was so "SJC" had the freedom to express themselves? Maybe I missed the point of this thread but I believe it went to the rate of travel of Benteen after receiving the order. In that case moving miles is better accomplished at the trot rather a gallop. Semper Fi AZ Ranger And I, as a proud member of the SJC generation, salute you all for the sacrifices you and your brothers made. And AZ, thank you for redirecting the purpose of the thread back to the original discussion. Be good, Billy
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Post by George Mabry on Jul 28, 2006 13:53:01 GMT -6
My thanks to Elisabeth and AZR for pointing out my missinterpretation of the theme of this thread. My comments were out of line and I stand corrected. Sorry for muddying up you thread Czrhrs. I apologize to you and any SJCs I may have offended with my post. George Enclaving in Texas
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Post by crzhrs on Jul 28, 2006 13:58:07 GMT -6
George M
You made two points:
1: about SOP regarding the military . . . I was just trying to point out the was no difference between Custer riding at a trot rather than a gallop in his "rescue" and Benteen and his.
2: those who have not served in the military . . . which I have by the way.
Thanks for trying to interpret military protocol and by throwing in a zinger adds to the intensity of all debates.
Apology accepted . . . but I wasn't really that offended . . . some have called me much worse!
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Post by George Mabry on Jul 28, 2006 15:03:42 GMT -6
Crzhrs, thank you for your kind reply but I would like to make one more point before I close this sorry episode in my life. I never meant to slam people without military service. The slam was intended for those who evaluate military matters with a civilian mindset. I don't pretend to have a "military mind" and I admit I was sometimes baffled by their way of thinking however I do recognize that the military has a protocol that is unique to them. Although I might not always understand it, I do recognize that it exists and I have an appreciation for it. When we as historians look at these events, you have to put yourself into a military state of mind in order to make evaluate their thinking. That's my two cents. Thanks for your indulgence.
George
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 28, 2006 15:26:42 GMT -6
Obviously, there can be no answer to this issue, key to all that is important, but a bath of blood.
I've scheduled a tour bus to Mabry's home and have a deal of pitchforks (and pitch!) and torches (Home Depot Clearance). Sign up. BYOB, BYOF, BYOdrool cup. No sharing. We'll rehearse stirring screams and chants on the way down. Get your own ride to Ouray, Colorado. We leave Sunday morning after church.
I'll provide the T-shirts.
PS Bring something to read. It's Texas.
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Post by markland on Jul 28, 2006 20:59:54 GMT -6
DC, calm your jets down. George offered a very gracious apology and you should be gentleman enough to accept it! If not, you are not the person I think you are-discounting the varous expletive deleteds thrown towards you...many well deserved by the way....but, all in all, I still believe you are a gentleman at heart.
OK, if you want more kudos, I demand a raise!
Be good all,
Billy
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 28, 2006 21:41:13 GMT -6
He owed me no apology. It was a jo....
Again, reference the chapter in your Mission Statement of Employees of Dark Endeavors entitled Cringing, Rather Nauseating Obsequiousness While Singing Te Deums To Your Employer, and do so. Paltry salary halved.
Freshen this.......no ice.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 28, 2006 22:03:24 GMT -6
George-- You have a valid point on military thinking.
AZ Ranger
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jul 29, 2006 7:53:40 GMT -6
Freshen this.......no ice. ;D ;D ;D Billy, while you are at it, get me one, please. A couple of narcissists at this conference are beyond belief . . . .
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Post by Tricia on Jul 29, 2006 8:11:53 GMT -6
Just as I was gonna ask you how the conference was going ... sigh.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jul 29, 2006 22:57:39 GMT -6
The conference was terrific!
I just don't understand -- and never will -- why a few people have to turn otherwise fun experiences into their own personal ego trips. I'm just in this little hobby because I love history and enjoy discussing/learning with others. I have missed you guys very much!
Warning to Markland: I'm bringing home some research questions for you!
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Post by markland on Jul 30, 2006 18:42:30 GMT -6
Bring it on sweeth'at, bring it on ;D You have to wait behind Ephriam (who I have been studiously ignoring since my return to Kansas). But, the database is up to 4K, with another 1K or so to type so it is time to take a break...maybe. Email me with the questions unless they are GAC/7th Cav. related. That way, I can ignore you also! Be good, Billy
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Post by mcaryf on Jul 31, 2006 2:49:35 GMT -6
I have been thinking about the "Bring Packs" message from Custer to Benteen.
Custer possibly has a view of the dust clouds coming down Reno Creek but may not be able to distinguish what is causing them at a distance of 6 or so miles. The fact that Benteen terminated his scout prematurely is not known to Custer so perhaps he assumes that Benteen is the rearmost dust cloud. His order then starts to make sense as it is the beginning of a necessary consolidation of his command and does not entail any great delay on Benteen although it still diminishes somewhat the urgency of the "quick".
When Custer is on the bluffs Benteen is supposedly about 1 mile on from the Morass whilst the rear of the packtrain is straggling into the Morass. Not sure how long dust would be hanging in the air but since part of the train is already at the Morass watering, it is making less new dust than Benteen. I would guess Custer would expect the packs to kick up more dust than Benteen - there are twice as many animals. Thus he might interpret Benteen's now larger cloud as being the pack train.
Any thoughts on this anyone? Does anybody know how good a view up Reno Creek exists from Weir? I know Benteen said you could only see 4 miles or so towards where the pack train was from Reno Hill.
Regards
Mike
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