Was Custer irritated into mistakes?

[mcaryf]

I do not want to get involved in psycho babble so my question is just about plain and simple irritation and what role it might have played.

There are two key instances - the first is when Benteen grabs the chance to lead the column by returning rapidly to confirm his companies' readiness. In his own account Benteen suggests that Custer was disconcerted by this and this was probably Benteen's intention.

Now one way Custer has to reverse Benteen putting one over on him is to send him on the foray to the left so he is no longer in the prime position to grab glory. Benteen in turn responds by going somewhat slow during and after his scout and crucially his Battalion is not readily available when it might have been useful.

The second incident is at the Lone Tepi when the scouts refuse to obey Custer's order to pursue the fleeing Indians. His verbal abuse of them indicates his temper and then he gives orders to Reno to pursue instead. Thus was Custer bounced into a premature disposition of his forces because he needed to demonstrate to the scouts that he would get his own way?

Could it be therefore that Custer's fatal deployment of his two Battalions was prompted by fits of pique at people not properly respecting his authority?

Regards

Mike

[Dark Cloud]

The questions are psychobabble, though. If the 7th were that juvenile and petty, they deserved it all in spades.

I don't think Benteen's intent was to annoy Custer, but to get out of any chance of dealing with dust and the mules which was Custer's incentive and of which Benteen had recent experience. He claimed he was ready. Who contradicted him, then or later? Benteen was not irresponsibly slow in getting to Custer, and even if he actually hated Custer, would greatly have preferred the honor of saving him than allowing Indians to kill him and a bunch of his own friends. So would Reno. All the plusses, none of the downside, which would soon feature being shot by aggrieved officers or men. If people actually thought that, Benteen was dead.

Everyone expected a big fight, and nobody was going to stupidly dice with death by Indian hand for petty reasons.

The most logical thing to me is that Custer thought the pack train horrendoplasty wasn't going to survive another three day march south and up, and he was probably correct. In aggregate with reasonable assumptions that they'd been discovered, he turned west on a major trail. More suggested evidence of discovery? Move now. That's all reasonable to me, if true.

I don't get the Benteen flense off, when scouts - of which there were a ton - could have done all that better and quicker. I don't get the micromanaged sequence of orders to Benteen. Both bespeak a disorganized commander to me.

The scouts weren't expected to fight in the battle; their pay was Sioux stock.

First actual error is telling Reno to charge the unknown, second is promising to support him with everyone. Given it's cavalry and Indian warfare, I don't see how Reno is unreasonable to assume the support includes essential components. Support of meaning concurrent with Reno's contact. Even so, Custer has made no irreversable horror as yet.

At Weir Point he makes the decision - whatever it was - that sends him north and ends up on LSH, threatening not only the strategic/general plan of Terry's but the tactical/very local, er, "plan" of Custer's, provided it existed.

[mcaryf]

Hi DC

It does seem to be quite a common opinion that Custer made his fatal error at Weir Point.

I am not sure how true this is. What were the alternatives at that stage - could he have retraced his steps and still been in time to support Reno? It would probably take 20-25 minutes to retrace his steps and reach Reno's position on the valley floor.

Thus Custer might arrive around the time that Reno leaves the timber. It is a nce question as to whether it is just before or just after. If it is just after then we have a grand melee on the valley floor which the cavalry probably lose, if it is just before then perhaps Custer and Reno get bottled up in the timber with a large number of Indians between them and the pack train. The most likely outcome of the second possibility is that Custer Reno survive in the timber whilst Benteen and the packs get "massacred". Same sort of outcome as reality but with some of the names changed and more ammo to the Indians.

If we do not want to go back before Weir Point probably the best alternate scenario is Custer leading an attack on MTC and getting killed there pretty quickly which prompts the new commander to retreat towards Reno Hill and hence reuniting the command. The force on Reno Hill is therefore that much stronger and able to threaten the Indians so it might even be that Terry's pincer has some chance to be applied.

Thus in my view the key decision (once Custer has decided not to support Reno from the rear) is not at Weir Point but at MTC.

Regards

Mike

[Dark Cloud]

I guess, it's where the baseline for discussion is drawn. I don't think he was irritated into wrong moves, though, and I don't think any 7th officer would willingly place elements of the force in lose-lose situations for any reason. If for no other reason, they couldn't afford to, and I have to believe justice would be swift in coming if any had.

I guess I can only weakly say that his decision to do whatever it was he did at MTC was pretty much decided upon at Weir Point. And I agree that Reno was toast and could only survive by his own initiative absent hugely favorable chance occurances, which probably happened. But Custer's fate was decided at Weir Point.

[elisabeth]

Two questions.

1: Imagining Custer had turned back at Weir Point to support Reno -- mightn't the mere appearance of his battalion on the bluffs alter the Indians' actions? There had already been a move to strike camp when Reno first attacked. It's possible that the sight of more soldiers turning up could have caused a return to Plan A, turning the warriors' stance into the usual rearguard action while the bulk of the village made its escape. In that case, the cavalry would still have had a big fight on its hands -- but on nothing like the same scale as happened in reality.

2: Alternatively, suppose Custer had attacked immediately at MTF and had not been killed (or not immediately). If Reno's still in the timber when Custer attacks, his force hasn't yet disintegrated. Chances are that only those Indians whose homes and families are directly threatened by Reno would stick around to try to keep him pinned down; the rest would dash off towards Custer to defend their own. Custer would still be facing massive numbers, but at the same time he'd be destroying things right and left -- plus he'd have placed himself between the majority of the warriors and their non-coms. His worst problem would be those who hadn't yet joined the party, and who'd be in his rear. Most likely, he'd be caught between two fires and destroyed, with maybe just a few lucky individuals escaping. But -- could we imagine that a not-yet-demoralised Reno might be able to break out of the timber and attack from the south? And that Benteen, arriving to see not a flight to the bluffs but a fight in progress further down the valley, would have made his presence felt as well? Perhaps not by a full-scale attack, as he'd feel a responsibility for the pack train, but at least by showing himself and providing an additional threat. As always with these alternative scenarios, there has to be at least a 50-50 chance that we'd end up with the entire 7th annihilated, instead of just part ... but maybe not?

As for the irritation factor, I don't think Mike's so far wrong. Not that anyone knowingly courted disaster, obviously -- but that decisions were influenced by mood, feelings, undercurrents, as well as by cold military judgement. They were in many CW battles, after all, as in most other wars before and since. Why should the 7th Cavalry, of all outfits, be immune? And on that day especially. We have a Custer who's tired, who's snappy, who's been wrong-footed into a plan (attacking at once) that he doesn't like and fears may fail, at a time in his life when he can least afford failure ... he's bound to have a pretty short fuse. As he demonstrates from the Crow's Nest onwards: swearing at Mitch Bouyer, bawling out Tom and Cooke for leaving the column, micro-managing Hare's scout as well as Benteen's, insulting the Rees, and even -- it would seem -- banishing Bloody Knife from his side for defeatism. Psychobabble perhaps, but the man is only human; my own view is that we discount that at our peril.

[mcaryf]

Hi Elisabeth

I am not sure how many but certainly some Indians had already seen Custer on the bluffs so what extra impact are you looking for? I guess if for some reason he had been around Reno Hill when Reno was coming back he might have helped. We know a few Indians were in that vicinity already for example the ones that killed the doctor and his orderly so these at least might have been cleaned out. However, the timings would have to be a bit strange for Custer to be there then.

It seems to me that the various times when Custer took key decisions were (1) at Lone Tepi when Reno is despatched, (2) when he gets Girard's message about the Indians coming up the valley or when something else happens that prompts him to decide to go up the bluffs, (3) when he first sees the true scale of the village from Weir Point or some other high place, (4) at MTC when he decides not to attack or retreat but to go further North.

These 4 decision points are not necessarily 100% precise as it appears Custer may have already pre-decided to go North before the probe at MTC but I am using the MTC location as shorthand for that decision.

Now several posters on this forum tend to identify decision point (3) as being the last one when Custer might have really impacted the outcome. In my previous post I was arguing against that because the timeline of other movements by Benteen and Reno did not fit so well to an alternate action there by Custer. It seems to me that a different decision at MTC, namely to retrace his steps actually allows for a better outcome than the same decision taken at Weir Point. Mainly because his appearance at MTC did have the beneficial impact of diverting the warriors and enabling Reno and Benteen to consolidate a position on Reno Hill to which Custer can then retire. It would not be a cake walk as quite a few warriors travelled towards MTC on the Eastern side of the river so Custer needs to fight his way through them but Benteen/Reno might then be able to intervene in that much closer action and even achieve a degree of local success before the Indian main body can get involved.

Coming to your second point, a full blooded attack at MTC, I can only see that ending in disaster albeit with the possibility of some additional damage to Indian property. I know Tony on this forum thinks that Custer did appear earlier at MTC whilst Reno was still fighting in the timber but I do not go along with that. I think it was after Reno had left thus I think Custer just gets destroyed that much quicker and that much closer to Reno Hill if he attacks at MTC. This brings the Indians back to Reno sooner and possibly in time to intercept McDougall with fairly dire consequences for all.

Regards

Mike

[elisabeth]

Looking again at Gray's timelines, it would seem that while Custer's actual appearance at MTC was later, it would not have been physically impossible for him to get there before Reno's retreat -- if a fast attack at MTF was what he'd wanted to do. But, yes, most probably with dire consequences.

I don't think many of the Indians fighting Reno in the valley had seen Custer on the bluffs, had they? The general reaction when the news reaches them seems to have been "Oh my God, more soldiers?" -- total shock and surprise. The moral effect of an indeterminate, but large, number of sinister blue-clad figures looming into sight along the skyline might have been substantial ...

I like your four key decision points. I wonder if there isn't also a fifth, though -- at Calhoun or thereabouts? He's already made one decision to go north; now, at Calhoun, he makes another. This is the moment when he could have decided to dig in and make a stand, as he's got all five companies together, and in a reasonably good defensive position: high ground, good fields of fire, good sightlines. But instead he splits off two companies for a further recon (or whatever it was that he had in mind), still apparently on the offensive. So he's now not only out of supporting distance from his other units, his own two wings are out of supporting distance of each other.

Which isn't to say that a stand on Calhoun Hill/Battle Ridge would have done him any good -- as unlike Reno, he'd have no access to water, and no fresh supply of ammunition. It might not have lasted very long. On the other hand, it might have been harder for Reno/Benteen to ignore. If Weir's foray had revealed not "Indians shooting into objects on the ground" far away, but a very obvious embattled Last Stand taking place in the foreground of the picture, some sort of counter-attack would surely have been made. With what success, who can tell; possibly the result is disaster all round, as in almost all other alternative scenarios!

[mcaryf]

I think the knowledge of Custer's force is not an instant thing, it gradually permeates through the Indian ranks from early sightings on the ridge to the actual reports from MTC. According to Michno I think some Indians on the bluffs near Reno Hill can actually see Custer's force in the distance.

I agree with you that there might have been a fifth decision point near Calhoun but by then there were certainly a lot more Indians filtering up from various areas to the South of Custer and so between him and Reno/Benteen. Whether it was still possible to get back through them must be problematic but he might still have been able to do a "Reno" charge. I guess they would have been in the plentiful dead ground so whether the cavalry had much idea of their true numbers is doubtful.

I still reckon a move back after MTC is probably still best after Custer chose to mount the bluffs.

Regards

Mike

[George Mabry]

mcaryf said:

Hi DC

It does seem to be quite a common opinion that Custer made his fatal error at Weir Point.

How comfortable are you in assuming that Custer had a look-see from Weir Point? I know that it is a logical assumption but I think that information comes from Curley. Didn't the other three Crow scouts say in later interviews that Curley was not with Custer's command and that he was off with the Rees chasing horses or something like that?

George

[mcaryf]

Hi GM

Well I was using Weir Point as shorthand for any vantage point on the bluffs from which Custer can see into the valley so I am not too bothered about where it was. Clearly the first time he sees it is an opportunity for him to finalise his strategy.

I think it is inconceivable that Custer would not take some opportunity to look out over the valley once he had attained the high ground. De Rudio certainly claimed to see him and whilst he is not 100% reliable as a witness it does support the idea that Custer would have done this. Also of course we have Martini who says he and Custer viewed the village from the bluffs.

Regards

Mike

[George Mabry]

Mike,

I ask that question because I though you were referring to Curley's statements that he and Boyer remained on the bluffs and took Custer word of Reno's retreat from the valley.

Curley's statements are something that have to be dealt with in determining what Custer knew and did not know at MTC. Martin said when he and Custer went to the bluffs they could not see Reno's outfit but did see a quiet village. If you don't believe that Custer knew of Reno's defeat then you must be discounting Curley.

Anyway, I was just curious as to what yours and everyone's take is on Curley.

George

[mcaryf]

I do think that Custer probably realised that Reno was or would be defeated whether or not Curley told him for definite. It would be obvious that Reno could not stand against so many. This is one of the most likely reasons why Custer did not press an attack at MTC.

Regards

Mike

[George Mabry]

Mike, if you discount Curley, there is no other way that Custer would have known that Reno would be defeated. When Custer went to the bluffs with Martin in tow, they saw a "sleeping village". No reason to think that Reno was going to have trouble there. Is there another source, other than Curley, that would give Custer information as to Reno's plight?

George

[mcaryf]

Hi GM

There are several possibilities for Custer to be aware of Reno's situation. First we have both De Rudio and Varnum who saw parts of Custer's command and possibly Custer himself after they were engaged in their skirmish line. De Rudio in particular claims this was after he himself entered the timber i.e. towards the end of Reno's resistance on the valley floor. By this stage there are large numbers of Indians opposing Reno and circling to his left. Varnum saw the Grey Horse troop after Reno's dismounted line was formed.

Martini is rather an unreliable witness and we have to be wary of the sleeping village comment. Most commentators assume Custer said something to the effect that we have caught them napping i.e. we have surprised them so that they have not had time to dismantle the village. Martini translates these words in his mind to the Indians are all asleep in their tepis and constructs a scene where there are only children and dogs on view and this is what he says at the RCOI. This may or may not be what he and Custer really saw. Remember he also managed to tell the RCOI in some detail about his carrying on from Benteen to McDougall when in later life he admits that this was not correct (he was misunderstood!?) and he did not go on to the pack train but stayed with Benteen.

The third possibility is that Boston Custer would have told his brother that Reno was defeated. We know that he passed Martini on his mission - I guess it is possible that the people De Rudio saw on the bluffs were Boston and Martini. In any event it is very probable that Boston would have seen enough of the Reno fight to know he was beaten and report that to his brother.

The final point is really conjecture as to why Custer did not press an attack at MTC. The most logical explanation is that he already knew that Reno was defeated and that the only chance to pull off a victory was for him to grab some hostages. There were none at MTC so he heads on further North, he fails to find any easy targets there and after that his motivation for deployment becomes obscure because he really ought to set himself up for defence but he does not.

Anyway the key point is that there were plenty of opportunities other than just Curley for Custer to be aware of Reno's situation.

Regards

Mike

[elisabeth]

Someone -- I think it's Kuhlman -- has a theory that Custer realised something of Reno's plight almost as soon as he got up onto the bluffs. It goes something like this: Custer sends Reno after "fleeing" Indians, heading north himself to scoop them up as they run. When he gets to the bluffs, he sees hundreds of warriors flooding to Reno and the tepees still standing. At this point he realises he's misread the situation. The hat-waving is then either an attempt to abort the charge, or an expression of relief when he sees that Reno's had the sense to halt and form a skirmish line. But he knows Reno's in serious trouble from then on, and can deduce his defeat even if he doesn't get direct news of it. Seems reasonable?