Fighting at Night

[mcaryf]

I am interested to know what was the general practice amongst the Sioux with respect to fighting at night?

I would have thought that the Reno hilltop might have been quite vulnerable during the night. The movies like to include shots of flaming arrows - were these actually used? I could imagine a scenario whereby flaming arrows are used for illumination with indirect fire from one direction whilst the "lit up" soldiers could be attacked from another. At the very least the odd shot or two would keep the soldiers from getting much sleep but the accounts I have read indicate that firing only resumed at dawn.

Mike

[elisabeth]

According to Mari Sandoz (mmmm, yes, I know ...) the traditional reluctance to fight at night was less from superstition/religion than from practicality: night dew would stretch bowstrings. She claims that the attitude simply carried over into the firearms era.

Your scenario makes a lot of sense, though; I'm sure they could have done a lot of damage that way.

The soldiers' slightly lurid stories suggest a triumphal scalp-dance in the village at night (with or without torturing of captives, take your pick); the Indians' stories say no, there were mourning ceremonies; but either way, it could be that the Indians, too, were happy to call it a day. Seems as if there were enough Indians moving around -- the phantom bugler, the bunch DeRudio saw with someone dressed in Tom Custer's clothes, etc. -- to keep Reno safely pinned down till morning; maybe their thinking was "why waste ammunition?"

[alfuso]

in addition to dew being bad on bowstrings -- ya can't see at night.

alfuso

[Gumby]

Both sides were notoriously bad shots in broad daylight. It is doubtful they would have hit much, if anything when shooting at night. I would assume that had more to do with the decision to not fight at night. Besides, they would need sleep as much as anyone else.

[mcaryf]

I am not well up on the developments in military illumination but I do know that the Very Pistol was invented by a US Naval Officer in 1877 so obviously the concept of flares was known in Custer's time. Wellington's army had explosive rockets at Waterloo (although he personally disapproved of them).

Of course in more modern day warfare the ability to operate with high tech equipment at night is a big advantage e.g. the British won the naval action at Cape Matapan at night because they had Radar and the Italians did not. The Japanese won at Savo because they had trained for night fighting and the USN had not at least to the same extent.

Custer's strategy at Washita was for a dawn attack so he at least tried to exploit the night on that occasion to get into position. I would have thought that Indian war chiefs should have considered the potential of night fighting but obviously on this occasion they did not.

Regards

Mike

[Dark Cloud]

The history of the west is almost entirely composed of utter embarrassing fiascos: whites sneaking up on and slaughtering the As One With Nature aborigines (sleeping in that day, as ever...) followed by the vicious savages sneaking up and slaughtering the Always Courageous and Competent Cat-Like Super Warrior mountain men/settlers/cavalry (drunk, incompetent, asleep.......).

The mythology of the west is bunk. If one (1) warrior had been remotely awake or alert, the Washita wouldn't have happened. The secret of success is a lousy opponent, and all these great victories by either side rely almost entirely upon gross negligence and incompetence. Embarrassing, their descendents have to dress it up (literally, in some cases....) with Betrayal, or the cowardice of one (1) man, or whatever.

We see this today. It is rarely mentioned that no "mastermind" was required for 9-11, and that if airline security and airline crews obeyed existing procedures at the time, not much would have happened. Cockpit doors propped open, half-assed metal detection at the gate by underpaid workers routinely screamed at by big shots for delaying a trip or having to explain why they shouldn't be allowed to carry on all their oversized luggage.......... All that was our fault, not their competence or brilliance. But we don't want to accept our responsiblity for it, and call them Fonts of Evil and Masterminds.

It's nice of mcaryf to NOT mention that one of the problems at Savo was the sure knowledge that the Japanese could not win a fair fight, that their eyes didn't allow good night vision, that - simply by being of Anglo/Euro/American warrior eithic - we could win. As it happened, the only ship that put up much of a fight was the Quincy, almost immediately sunk, while the rest of the cruisers wandered lonely as clouds, couldn't hit anything, provided a fiasco so bad a surviving captain killed himself and even the US Navy, expert at such things, couldn't pat this into anything but a world class wallop by an equal force.

That's what happens when historical nonsense - called myth or legend - becomes 'truth' and fiction becomes dogma. Our folks die needlessly to no end.

[mcaryf]

It is somewhat off topic but (and here I blame DC for developing one of my examples) one of the problems with the USN at Savo was that in the pre-war years, gunnery practice had become a competitive activity in the USN. Thus most gunnery practice was actually undertaken in good weather and light so as to be a fair competition. It was very unfair of the Japanese to attack at night and entirely outside normal competitive rules!

To bring it back to Custer, the analogy is that the 7th Cavalry did not really get trained for the action they might expect to see (like the USN) but rather got deployed in other useful activities like escorting their commanding officer whilst he was enjoying himself hunting.

Regards

Mike

[Lawtonka]

I think the Indians were using common sense. Unlike the U.S. Military or any other military unit, the warriors fought independently and pretty well knew how to take care of themselves.

On fighting from horseback, I don't think there were many soldiers that could match thier skills.

On foot, they took full advantage of the ravine and high grass and sage, only exposing themselves long enough to get of a shot. Hmmmmmm, this style of fighting worked very well at Kings Mountain in South Carolina during the Revolutionary War agains the British.

There was no doubt in their minds that they commanded the field on the 25 and 26th. I don't think they feared a night attack from the 7th. The old saying, "There is Strength in Numbers."

As to marksmanship, there was one position where the Indians had an vantage point where they acted as snipers firing down on Reno and Benteen's poistion with some devistating effect.

"That's all I've got to say 'bout that"

[Gumby]

Lawtonka,
Well said. While both parties were notoriously poor shots. There were some exceptions. Some warrior or warriors on Sharpshooters Ridge managed to do some good shooting. Sgt. Ryan was reportedly a good shot and had an excellent rifle. The high ground on Sharpshooters Ridge also allowed the warriors there an excellent view of the exposed soldiers below.

I don't know why some people think race is an issue when it comes to shooting guns, artillery, or anything else. It is simply a matter of natural skills and/or practice. Neither side had much ammunition for target practice in those days so naturally good shots stood out.

[mcaryf]

Rather coincidentally I have just read about the Sioux using illuminated arrows! The story is in Evan Connell's "Son of the Morning Star" - my thanks to those that recommended it to me in a book thread, I am really enjoying it.

Apparently the Sioux smeared gunpowder to arrows by wetting it and then used the resulting pyrotechnic arrow for signalling purposes. The Cheyenne used arrows as firebombs by attaching a percussion cap to the blades and surrounding them with a sack of gunpowder. They used this device to set fire to stagecoach stations in Kansas. I guess this required some preparation time - perhaps if Terry had been a bit later....

Regards

Mike

[elisabeth]

That's just fascinating! (I'm going to have to read that book again, I can see.) Amazing that we never see this in the movies. Plenty of the "flaming arrow" variety, but I don't ever recall seeing the firebomb used.

[El Crab]

elisabeth said:

That's just fascinating! (I'm going to have to read that book again, I can see.) Amazing that we never see this in the movies. Plenty of the "flaming arrow" variety, but I don't ever recall seeing the firebomb used.

I think we know why we haven't seen it. You'd have to somehow explain the concept, either in showing the construction or talking about it. Otherwise, you'd have Indians shooting arrows that explode on impact. And with John Rambo nowhere in sight, a confused audience as well.

So instead of adding a scene showing Indians constructing arrows, or a scene where a grizzled veteran of the plains explains that Indians sometimes attach percussion caps to arrows to cause them to explode. Then, of course, you have the problem of the average moviegoer not knowing what the hell a percussion cap is.

So instead of percussion cap'd arrows, we get the tried-and-not-necessarily-true flaming arrows. Just as we get the Indians circling 30 feet away, or charging en masse against barricaded and well-armed white men. And probably my favorite, extreme accuracy with .45 Colts on both sides, usually while mounted.

That definitely is my favorite. The hero almost always forgoes the Henry or Winchester, and uses a Peacemaker.

Then, of course, there's the death on horseback. Apparently there's only two ways to die on a horse. You either are shot and in your last moments on Earth, leap off your horse like Superman, arms and legs outstretched. Or you tumble off, rifle spinning in the air, only to be dragged by your lariat, which has caught your leg. Good times.

[elisabeth]

You're so right. No footnotes in the movies, so everyone would think it was made up, and walk out.

Yes, the Colt's my favourite too. Especially the one the hero carries, which fires 100 rounds without ever needing to be reloaded ...

[El Crab]

elisabeth said:

You're so right. No footnotes in the movies, so everyone would think it was made up, and walk out.

Yes, the Colt's my favourite too. Especially the one the hero carries, which fires 100 rounds without ever needing to be reloaded ...

Oh, they're reloaded before that. Except they only need to be reloaded between charges.

SETTLER
You reckon them Cheyennes have lit out for good?

James Wheeler reloads his Colt, slowly feeding in rounds and turning the cylinder.

JAMES WHEELER
We sure did give them a good whipping. But they'll be back.

[crzhrs]

mcaryf:

I don't remember reading anything about illuminated arrows in SOMS . . . unless I missed it. Where in the book is it mentioned?