interesting CHIEF FLYINGH AWKS tale

[shatonska]

community-2.webtv.net/Wimz/CHIEFFLYINGHAWKS/page8.html

related to the Custer's side of the fight it is interesting to note that Custer was north , separated form keogh cahloun and that :
[glow=red,2,300]"When Custer got nearly to the lower end of the camp, he started to go down a gulch, but the Indians were surrounding him, and he tried to fight. They got off their horses and made a stand but it was no use. Their horses ran down the ravine right into the village."[/glow]this shows that the village arrived around deep ravine (the gulch)
(krow king say the same thing ) that's why Custer didn't charge at mt ford , village extended further north , indian accounts and indian maps say this (watch indian maps in Fox)
the stand he's speaking about i think it is the south skirmish line

[shatonska]

ok i'll tell you what happened

cheyenne accounts clearly are misleading , they wanted to mislead because they killed Custer
in grinnell they say that custer wanted to cross mt ford but was repulsed on cemetery , they clearly mix events at the two ford , Custer was wounded at ford D (deep ravine) by cheyennes , soldies brought him on cemetery area, then soldiers tryed the stand on south skirmish line to cover the retreat toward the rest of the companies , from cemetery custer was brought on last stand hill company on ssl retreated there too
Keogh had to stay on ridges above mt ford to wait for benteen and charge at that ford as soon as Custer came charging from the north ( soldiers who neared the ford were checking it ofr the future charge remember that this was the minneconjou ford and minneconjou say soldiers never came near the ford , all lakota say that cheyenne say different but they speak of ford D) , but Custer (nor Benteen) never came but came the warriors so keogh moved on battle ridge to see what had happened to Custer and to join with him , as CHIEF FLYINGH AWKS say there where some stands from cahloun on to cover the move toward custer but only a few soldiers joined Custer on lsh

i can change my opinion only if i find something important in the two books i miss immensely , the one from peter powell and the one from marquis on the battle ( not the wooden leg's one )
the key is in the cheyennne's accounts ,all the books based on cheyennes memories mix accounts from various tribe's members , the truth can be found only reading separately one by one the cheyenne accounts , not accounts mixed to follow the idea of the writer

[crzhrs]

Shat:

It was the far end of the village where Custer was heading and it held the Northern Cheyenne and some Southern Cheyenne. It was the Cheyenne who may have had more involvement in fighting Custer than the Sioux. It is mostly their accounts told to whites and other accounts passed down to their descendants that could possibly help us understand Custer's movements.

By the time the majority of Sioux showed up Custer may already have been repulsed and forced back to the high ground.

There is much testimony by the Cheyenne that should be separated from the Sioux and I think you are correct in thinking that. After all it was the Cheyenne who had warned Custer not to fight the Cheyenne again and if he did he would suffer.

Fate sometimes is uncanny . . . the Cheyenne prophasy came true!

[shatonska]

lakota accounts are perfect , from reno to custer all say the same (only gall lyed but for his personal inteest )
cheyenne accounts are perfect on Reno but when you come to Custer it is a mess , every account contradicts the other , clearly some cheyenne wanted to hide the truth , it was a tactic , remember that cheyennes were few and a very united people and were the one who had soffered the most because of the soldiers , cheyenne camp was full of people who hated and knew Custer perfectly , the warrior that had the 2 Custer's pistol was made chief after the fight.......

[Jim]

Shatonska,

You are correct at identifying Spotted Wolf and his son, White Elk, who were the ones, supposedly, to have Custer's guns. I think that there "soon-to-be-announced" Oral History of the Battle could provide the weapons.

[shatonska]

his son's name was white shield , there is a beautiful photo of him in grinnell "the fighting cheyennes"

[Jim]

Shatonska,

You are RIGHT, my mistake! White Elk was White Shield's brother!

[Jim]

However, from their OWN Oral History, it says, "After the Bighorn fight, both Spotted Wolf and his son White Elk came away with interesting, white-handled pistols and Yellow Nose captured the 7th Cavalry Guidon. On the day following the battle, the Northern Cheyenne held a special honoring ceremony in which Spotted Wolf was made a War Chief. Still dusty and covered with blood, he stood to receive this honor, although one of his eyes had been shot out by a soldier's bullet at point blank range.

The matching, white-handled pistols were secreted away......."

www.soaringeagle.org/elders/bisco_legacy.html

[pjsolla]

Shatonska:

Hi! I have read your post #1. Your right, there is so much confliciting written history on what happened. Makes it very difficult to draw conclusions.

Regarding Custer being "wounded at Ford D (Deep Ravine)", I just cannot see that. Both of these wounds would have been fatal. However, the chest wound could have left Custer alive for a short. Not very long. Actually, with a chest wound of that type, he could not have stayed in the saddle very long. It would have incapacitated him very rapidly. And if he was wounded at Ford D, which I do not accept, the 20 or so minute delay in the Flats would have had him unconscious by that time. And a stand at the SSL at this time just does not fit.

We know that some sort of engagement was held by the now Visitors Center. This is where the suicide boys scattered E companies horses. However, E rejoined with F in the basin and then made their way up to LSH with E providing a rearguard action.

We know the pre battle village extended beyond the MTC ford, but not much. From what I have studied, I do not see it going as far as Deep Ravine. Possibly the post battle village, but not the pre.

You say that "they got off their horses and made a stand but it was no use. Their horses ran down the ravine and right into the village".

This sounds to me to be describing the C company charge down to Greasy Grass Ridge. There, C company went down to GGR, dismounted, and literally lost their mounts. The troopers, on foot, made their way back up to Calhoun Hill.

I don't know of any other stand by the troopers where the horses ran to the river. And the SSL engagement only involved five riders (Indian testimony).

Again, this is all confusing at best, but I do not post here to refute you, so much as to tell you how I interpret it.

And I really do not see much evidence to show Custer was wounded in any way before making his stand at LSH. Again, either of those wounds would have been fatal, especially the head wound. But the chest wound? Would have rendered him helpless. Unable to sit up at all, let alone ride a mount.

Sad part is I truly believe that the Cheyenne written history probably holds the key to what happened. Just a matter of unraveling all of it. And I honestly feel that there is a lot more "uncovered" history that we do not have.

The Araphoes, Waterman and Left Hand appear to have given the only written record of having seen Custer at the end of the battle. Waterman says he saw him on his hands and knees, blood coming from his mouth and a bullet wound thru his side. Moreso, Left Hand says he saw him standing up, towards the end of the battle, pistols in his hands and shooting into the Indians. Any truth to it? I guess I'd like to think so. Two Araphoe, two stories.

Waterman gives me a bit more as he said that four soldiers were sitting up around him, all badly wounded.

If anybody has further info, please--------post it. I don't say my views, based on what I have studied for over 20 years are gospel. Just my views and opinions.

Regards, PJS

[shatonska]

Araphoes lived in the cheyenne village , were blood brothers , cheyennes saved Araphoes before and during the battle (from lakota's revenge) these were northern Araphoes lived in the wind-big horn area never saw custer , only cheyennes could have told them who was Custer , that happened

read the link of flying hawk i posted , it is clear that "they got off their horses and made a stand but it was no use. Their horses ran down the ravine and right into the village".
was at deep ravine ,girard found the tracks of this
lakota accounts and maps draw by indians tell where the village ended,
Custer was brought on cemetery, this explains why the charge stopped why they retreated on cemtery and why there was the ssl , to cover the further move on lsh
and expllains why lakotas speak of 3 companies retreating toward cahlon (no 5) , Custer was already north since the beginning , he didn't sat on ridge over mt ford

a theory , but with points that fit with things that are conflicting

[crzhrs]

A small number of Arapahoes were in the village, but some of the Sioux, possibly Cheyenne thought they were spys and wanted to kill them, but were talked out of it. To show their loyalty, I think the Arapahoes took part in the fight.

[shatonska]

crzhrs said:

A small number of Arapahoes were in the village, but some of the Sioux, possibly Cheyenne thought they were spys and wanted to kill them, but were talked out of it. To show their loyalty, I think the Arapahoes took part in the fight.

were 5 ,they lived in the teepee of Two mooon who saved them from the lakotas who considered these arapahoes spies and wanted to kill them , during the fight they killed a lakota thinking he was a scout and cheyennes saved them from lakota's revenge
cheyenne told them who was Custer but they were loyal and told only that , not who killed Custer where and how

[pjsolla]

Shatonska:
Sigh, it's terrible to say, but it's so hard, online, to try and sort this out.

I read what you have to say but do not agree with portions of it.

I will try and get back to this later to respond.

PJS

[shatonska]

it seems clear to me what CHIEF FLYINGH AWKS says , just follow the course , he continues to say that custer was north and he is speaking of custer referring to the goulch , this goulch was north ,it could not be deep coulee because CHIEF FLYINGH AWKS has long before told of the action at cahloun (Crazy horse shooting ) then on keogh
the problem is that some people continues to be wrong on the charge of the soldiers , the stand and the charge of lame white man and the suicide boys , this happened at deep ravine , on finley the action was only a rear guard action covering the retreat on cahloun, but it is too simple to be accepted
cheyenne are clear suicide boys charged from cemetery and lame white man was with them how can people shift this action to finley area is out of any sense