Ammunition Factor

[Tricia]

All--

I know we've talked about Reno's actions in the timber and then upon reaching the bluffs in other threads, but how much was ammunition and/or the lack of it a factor in determining his movements? Was the amouns of bullets getting down to a place where continuing the fight on the valley floor would have been disasterous and he had to seek higher ground? Or was it really just panic?

Regards,
Leyton McLean

[El Crab]

From all I've read on the subject, I don't believe the ammunition was a factor. It was more of one once Benteen arrived, as Reno would not order an advance until ammo mules were brought up. Not that they were needed, but they did seem to be used to warrant a delay. When Hare brought the mules up, there wasn't a queue formed to replenish, nor were even all of the boxes opened.

[bigpond]

Isn't it strange that the defenders of the village didn't seem to have a problem with ammunition.
Given that they had recently fought a battle against Crook at the Rosebud only days before.

[crzhrs]

According to testimony from the Reno officers . . . the enlisted men were firing very rapidly and others had to go back for more ammo. They only had the ammo on their persons' and the extra with their horses. I don't believe it was a huge amount, but if used judiciously may have lasted . . . but not long enough to hold off warriors. As it was Indians were already infiltrating the timber and some got so close they fired into the group including Reno and Bloody Knife.

We can say it was because of faulty organizing and discipline in the timber by the soldiers, but there were officers there (French, Varnum, Wallace, who were experienced and should have ordered some kind of defensive position if not just for their own companies) or the Indians were just experts at the tactics of infiltration and stalking.

[mcaryf]

It is not clear that the Indians expended a great deal of ammunition against Reno's skirmish line when it was in the open. I think he only had one casualty and that may have been the soldier whose horse bolted.

The army Springfield had a range advantage over many of the Indian firearms thus it is more than likely that Reno stopped in good time to exploit that advantage rather than advance to close quarters. The Indians' objective was to keep Reno from getting in amongst their non-combatants and they could achieve that by riding about, creating dust and offering a threat if Reno advanced further. They also set fire to areas to create smoke and further obscure the scene - neither side would be using smokeless propellant so the visibility would be getting generally murky. It seems that the Indians also did not suffer many casualties at this stage. Of course once the Indians got into the timber the range is no longer an issue and we see Reno taking casualties (Bloody Knife and a trooper).

Once Reno and Benteen reunite, Benteen's troopers share some of their ammo with Reno's men so there plainly were some shortages. Most accounts had Reno skirmishing in the open for 20 minutes or so during which time his men could have expended most of the ammo in their belts. The reserve stocks were with their horses being held in the timber so that might have been another reason for Reno to withdraw into it.

The issue of the packs can be interpreted two ways - either they are needed for ammo or they are to be given greater protection from capture by being brought near the cavalry main forces. I tend to the second view in respect to Custer's message. He had seen how many warriors there might be from the size of the village and did not want his packtrain to be at risk of capture. We know he had not expended much ammo by the time he sent his famous message. By this interpretation Benteen would have been following Custer's orders correctly in waiting until the packtrain came up rather than moving rapidly to Custer's apparent location.

Mike

[crzhrs]

Most of the warriors were riding around in front of the village covering for non-coms and creating a "smoke-screen" to conceal their movements.

There is not much testimony by either side of any warriors being hit, probably because they were moving targets and enlisted man had very little training in firing their carbines.

Once in the timber it may have been even more difficult to see with tree/brush cover and smoke from fires set by Indians.

It wasn't until Reno "charged" to the rear that Indians saw their opportunity and inflicted heavy casualties on fleeing soldiers. There was no rear cover by any soldiers, even though Varnum and even one of the Doctors was practically begging men to stop running and make a stand.

There were some warrior casualties, but overall it was one-sided.

As for Custer's two messengers for the packs and men. The first, delivered by Kanipe (still some controversy whether he actually was a messenger) called just for the packs and cut them loose if the animals balked, the second by Martini was for the packs AND Benteen . . . so the question now is were the packs the priority for the first message and then Custer realizing he also needed additional men to plan his attack sending a second messenger for additonal men also?

And what was the time between sending two messengers? When did Custer realize he needed not only the packs but additional men . . . and was Kanipe really a messenger or was he deserting? Why send a sgt. as a messenger when he would be needed as a leader for his company?

[mcaryf]

I have not come across the suggestion that Sgt Kanipe was a deserter before. I would have thought a senior NCO might have been sent to help ensure the message got through and the packtrain could be guided back to Custer. Do not really understand why Kanipe might have reckoned it would be safer to desert and be with the packtrain rather than with Custer.

The second message could be explained by Custer worrying that the packtrain is now being brought into harms way, he was aware of Reno being in a fight, and so perhaps it ought to have an even stronger escort so Benteen is also to be involved in bringing the packs. This would explain the double emphasis with PS bring pacs because it significantly changes Benteen's role.

Regards

Mike

[Jas. Watson]

I agree with the above. That double emphasis on the "bring pacs" makes a lot of difference. It says that Custer place a greater priority on the packs than on the additional men that Benteen had...otherwise the emphasis would have been on the 'come quick'.
I have never heard of Kanipe being anything other than a messenger, but would be very interested in hearing what views there are on the subject.

Jas.

[crzhrs]

The two officers with the pack train stated that they never received a message from Kanipe. Kanipe gave an overly opportunistic account of Custer heading for the village to enlisted men . . . but the officers heard nothing about that or the message to bring packs.

The possibility of Kanipe deserting Custer is questionable . . . why do that without knowing that Custer and all his men would be killed and jeopardizing his career when Custer comes back and says what happen to you?

Still there is some who suggest Kanipe left on his own and since Tom Custer who supposedly gave Kanipe the order was killed, there is no one else to back up Kanipe. At least Martini had written orders.

[Jas. Watson]

Hmmm....
There just might be something to it...maybe.
As a Sergt. he could have left the ranks on his own without the men questioning (he didn't have to remain in his position in ranks). Perhaps--and I only say perhaps--he had a case of the jitters (I would too) and sorta drifted away--maybe saying something vague to Lieut. Harrington or something like that...and then just kept going, figuring to link up with the packs so it could be a questionable thing rather than outright running away. In my time in the army I have seen men do that sort of thing--hoping for maybe a repramand, but nothing more serious (as a matter of fact not even that much happened to those who we know DID drop out)--especially if there was a big battle.
I think in a case like this one merely looks at the rest of the soldier's record.
Interesting thought...but I'd want to see more evidence.

Jas.

[crzhrs]

Jas:

There were a number of men from Custer's command (C Company) who ended up back on Reno Hill. They claimed their horses gave out . . . who's to say . . . but the possibility is there that they realized someone was biting off more than they could chew.

[elisabeth]

It's curious that there were so many from Co. C, isn't it? From Kanipe's story it would seem that C was at the head of the column. Could it be that they saw something in Custer's mood that they didn't like, or overheard some exchange between him and Tom that alarmed them?

You've got to feel sorry for Harrington, really. Under strength by the absence of a) his company commander (with HQ), b) all those stragglers, and c) one sergeant. Assuming the Fox theory is correct, it's hardly surprising they were the first company to crack when they'd been leaching people at such a rate ...

Re Kanipe: in Benteen's second narrative (Benteen-Goldin Letters, p. 184-185) Benteen states that Kanipe was carrying written orders. It's not mentioned anywhere else, as far as I can recall -- even by Kanipe -- so his memory may have been playing tricks. But if true, it would scupper the "deserter" story. As for the officers receiving no message: hmmm. I wonder if Mathey and McDougall haven't got off rather lightly all these years!

[mcaryf]

The account on this web site www.mohicanpress.com/battles/ba04004.html
reports that Kanipe continued on from Benteen's column and met up with the packtrain. Seems surprising that he would materialise out of the blue and not talk to the officers and if he told one story to Benteen why not the same one to the packtrain? Is the officer's story that he never joined the packtrain but stayed with Benteen's column?

regards

Mike

[elisabeth]

Good point, Mike. Unless they weren't paying attention, they should have noticed a stray sergeant turning up, and questioned him ... The don't mention him at all in their interviews in Custer in 76; I'll dig around and see what they have to say for themselves elsewhere.

[elisabeth]

Good point, Mike. Unless they weren't paying attention, they should have noticed a stray sergeant turning up, and questioned him ... The don't mention him at all in their interviews in Custer in 76; I'll dig around and see what they have to say for themselves elsewhere.