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Post by Jim on Mar 1, 2006 16:52:42 GMT -6
"As for the 45-55, or even a .46-70 caliber round, (that had an effective range of 300 & 600 yds.) carried more than a mile and a half!!!
When were those rounds fired? During Reno's advance, retreat, by Indians later after capturing soldiers' weapons?"
My point regarding the .45-55 or .45-70's ballistic characteristics was that if you look at Maguire's Map, you will see the Reno's skirmish line drawn about a mile-and-a-half away from the Indian village. He (Reno) would have had to have his skirmish line march, ON FOOT, over a MILE to have been able to reach the tipi's with their volleys!
The bullets in question could only be attributed to the Reno skirmish line of the initial charge or advance. AND that was way too far for them to have reached any tipi's. It would be ludicrous to believe that these rounds reached the village upon their retreat or weapons fired from captured weapons by the Indians!
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Mar 1, 2006 18:47:45 GMT -6
Reno's men were certainly closer than a mile and a half from the village. His skirmish line made it to at least the spot where the red roofed museum stands today. That is not one and a half miles from the Garryowen Trading Post. Much less. Some of you are also mixing up maximum effective range and actual range. I believe the maximum range is listed in "The Custer Myth" but I am not positive. They could kill at over a thousand yards. Obviously they were not aimed at anyone in particular at that range but a stray bullet can kill as well as an aimed one.
Supposedly Bouyer and some of the Crows fired into the village from the east side of the river and it is likely that some of the bullets from the fighting in MTC area landed in the village as well. It is highly unlikely that any of the bullets from Custer's five companies killed anyone in the Hunkpapa circle.
Another possibility is that the Reno soldiers whose horses carried them into the village fired their pistols at a few people before they died.
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Post by Jim on Mar 1, 2006 19:09:57 GMT -6
Gumby,
Look at Maguire's map, with the distance legend, and tell me that the Reno Skirmish is not over 1 1/2 miles away from the village! I would tend to disagree with you that a Blackpowder round would be able to kill someone over a thousand yards! That's almost 3/4 of a mile. Todays USMC .50 caliber sniper rifles barely make a kill shot over that distance, and we're talking over 100 years of improvements!
Any distance over "effective range" tends to fall off to non-fatal projectiles. Why do you think they call it EFFECTIVE range?
The shots from Bouyer and some of the scouts could have made it to the village, but with limited firepower, I doubt if it really was that effective, unless, of course you were standing next to one or two of the tipi's that were hit!
AND if I were on the back of a horse that was uncontrollable and charging into the village (which probably indicated you were one of the rookie's in the 7th), the last thing I would have done is grab my pistol and begin firing at the enemy!!! I would have had that "bit" on the horse shoved down his throat. Can you imagine hitting ANYTHING from the back of a horse, not under your control, galloping through the village of the enemy!?!?!? - GET REAL!!
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Post by shatonska on Mar 2, 2006 6:11:53 GMT -6
Maguire's map is wrong , as asserted by every soldier's account at the RCOI
Indian accounts are clear , reno's bullets killed people in the huinkpapa camp (read accounts in lakota noon) and shattered the tips of the teepees , ree's accounts are clear they followed (and killed) women and children in the open area of the wood along the river then escaped with an herd of horses ( now we know that were Gall's relatives )
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Mar 2, 2006 10:26:43 GMT -6
Jim, Maximum effective range is the maximum range in which a rifleman has a better than average chance of hitting his/her target. At 600 yards a good marksman could still hit the target occassionally. Billy Dixon killed an Indian at Adobe Walls at about a mile. The Springfields could kill at 1000 yards, not that you would have much of a chance to hit what you were aiming at.
The MaGuire map was not accurate. Go to the battlefield and look for yourself. If you like I can measure the distance for you this summer. The soldier accounts give the best indication of distance from skirmish line to village. The soldiers were notorious for firing too high when shooting at warriors on horseback and had to be constantly reminded to aim low. A kneeling or standing soldier firing at a target that is three to six feet higher in elevation (riding warrior) would be shooting at a higher trajectory. This would allow the bullets to land farther into the village than one with a level trajectory.
I said it was possible that the runaway horsemen fired their pistols at some people, not that I thought it was probable. That is why I put it down last as a possibility. I don't think it likely that any more than one or two of Custers' men got into the village without one single Indian account mentioning it. Especially in light of the fact that they Cheyenne defending the ford were so adamant about the fact that Custer didn't get any closer to the river than where he ended up. That doesn't mean that he could not have gotten closer once he was out of their sight north of Calhoun Hill. I believe he did. However, he wasn't likely to be shooting Indians in the area of the Hunkpapa circle two or three miles away either. Martin doesn't indicate that Custer's five companies did any shooting prior to his departure either. So who do you think was firing all of those stray rounds into the Hunkpapa circle? It certainly wasn't the Arikara Scouts who for the most part were out of the fight pretty quickly after they stole a small number of ponies. Their jobs were to find the village and steal as many ponies as they could. They did so and then departed the area. They probably killed a few Sioux that were targets of opportunity to them and didn't require much of their time.
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bhist
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Post by bhist on Mar 2, 2006 13:31:53 GMT -6
Gumby, AND if I were on the back of a horse that was uncontrollable and charging into the village (which probably indicated you were one of the rookie's in the 7th), the last thing I would have done is grab my pistol and begin firing at the enemy!!! I would have had that "bit" on the horse shoved down his throat. Can you imagine hitting ANYTHING from the back of a horse, not under your control, galloping through the village of the enemy!?!?!? - GET REAL!! Actually, if you had attempted to slow your horse by that approach you would have kept going all the way to Little Big Men pizza in Hardin, MT. I’m not sure what is worse; eating at Little Big Men pizza in Hardin, MT or getting caught in an Indian village with a lot of upset warriors. The last thing you want to do to slow and then stop the horse is to pull back on the reins, instead you want to move your horse either left or right -- get him going into a circle. Then, you can gain control and move him in the direction you need him to move.
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