Did they get into the village?

[elisabeth]

This is prompted by crzhrs's thread in Custeriana Queries, about the excellent Wyoming Tales and Trails website. But it's a big question, and maybe deserves a thread of its own ...

That site quotes Captain Poland's report dated July 24th 1876. (Full version in Graham, The Custer Myth, p. 46.) Poland talked to seven -- unnamed -- Sioux warriors who'd returned to the Standing Rock agency on July 21st after taking part in the LBH battle. So this must be the earliest, and least contaminated by time, Indian account given to a white man of what happened.

These warriors say that Custer "crossed the river, but only succeeded in reaching the edge of the Indian camp".

Now ... this was also Benteen's first impression after visiting the field. In his July 4th letter to his wife, he says he's "of the opinion that nearly, if not all of the five companies got into the village but were driven out immediately". And Reno, in his report, says it's his view that "C, I, and perhaps part of E" crossed to the village.

Shortly after, the party line changed and all stoutly denied that any cavalry force had crossed the river. We hear no more of it from any Indian sources, either. But ... can we completely discount the possibility?

[shatonska]

plus , big beaver's map , the cheyenne boy was right there at the ford in the cheyenne village and in his map he draw that soldier's trail at the edge of the village west of the river

[shan]

Elizabeth

I wonder if those warriors were referring to the attack by Reno's men, if one reads through the Indian accounts they often tend to use ' Custer ' as a generic term for the whole command, whether it be Reno, Benteen or Custer.
I just think that if part, or all of Custer's command had penetrated the village, there would have been more Indian accounts that talked about it, especially those that had been at the ford when he was first sighted, men who were interviewed and stoutly maintained that none of the troopers came with several hundred yards of the ford.
Shan

[El Crab]

I immediately thought the same as Shan, especially when you look at the proximity of the account to the date of the battle. At this point, its possible that those asking the questions didn't realize the necessity of differentiating the soldiers. Or it never occurred to those asking that when they said Custer, they might have meant his soldiers, regardless of those who were in his battalion or not.

[crzhrs]

I think one of the confusing aspects with the Indians testimony is speaking about the entire 7th.

The generic use of Custer may have added to the confusion with white's interpretation of who the Indians were talking about. Custer's name may have been a catch-all when discussing what part of the command was taking action or who the Indians were fighting.

Still no definitive account of any part of the command actually entering the village. Reno's command did get close enough to fire into the village and killed some non-coms . . . but it seems unlikely that any part of Custer's command got close. The companies that attempted to cross the ford either fell back intentionally or were forced back and thus did not get close to the village and threaten it.

[Jim]

crzhrs,

First of all, you have to realize that any reference to Custer "WAS" a generic term for the troopers, as any reader of the Indian testimonies will attest to . They did not know who they were fighting when the attack started at the upper end of the village(or a long time after). They thought it was Crook's troopers charging.

As far as Reno's troops getting close enough to fire into the village, you have got to be kidding!!! If they were lucky enough to get within 600 yards(farther than the range of the carbines) of the village, I'd be surprised. AND how do you know they killed non-coms, by the testimony of Gall!?!?!? He was definitely a person whom I do not believe in his statements of what happened! (According to him, he was EVERYWHERE on that battlefield) AND who can corroborate his statement of his 2 wifes & 3 children being killed. There is no other indian statements than can back him up.

AND which ford are you talking about when you say that Custer never actually got into the village??? certainly not Medicine Tail Coulee, but how about further north??? He did divide his companies when in that area!!! So you may be relying on too many NA statements that where in different area's of the battlefield!!

[El Crab]

Sgt. Ryan said his group of 10 got amongst the tepees. They were sent to clear out the timber during the advance, that little group.

[Gumby]

There were a small group of lodges farther south than the rest of the Hunkpapa circle. They were the ones that Ryan and his men cleared. So in a sense, Reno's men did reach the village. The carbines of the soldiers were within range of the village from the skirmish line. While not all that accurate from that range, the bullets would still kill whomever they came into contact with.

[elisabeth]

The thing that makes Poland's account bit suggestive (for me) is the sequence. He gives the Indians' account of the Reno fight ... then the sighting of Custer's separate command ... then how they reacted to that ... and then the throwaway comment about getting into the village. OK, so maybe Poland is constructing with hindsight a sequence that might not have been so clear in the Sioux warriors' accounts, but it all sounds very straight and factual. Best if I quote the relevant part. Here's what he says:

"The Indian account is as follows: The hostiles were celebrating their greatest of religious festivals -- the sun dance -- when runners brought news of the approach of cavalry. The dance was suspended and a general rush -- mistaken by Custer, perhaps, for a retreat -- for horses, equipment and arms followed. Major Reno first attacked the village at the south end across the Little Big Horn. Their narrative of Reno's operations coincides with the published accounts: how he was quickly confronted, surrounded; how he dismounted, rallied in the timber, remounted and cut his way back over the ford and up the bluffs with considerable loss; and the continuation of the fight for some little time, when runners arrived from the north end of the village, or camp, with the news that the cavalry had attacked the north end of the same -- about three or four miles distant. The Indians about Reno had not before this the slightest intimation of fighting at any other point. A force large enough to prevent Reno from assuming the offensive was left and the surplus available force flew to the other end of the camp, where, finding the Indians there successfully driving Custer before them, instead of uniting with them, they separated into two parties and moved around the flanks of his cavalry. They report that he crossed the river, but only succeeded in reaching the edge of the Indian camp. After he was driven to the bluffs the fight lasted perhaps an hour."

So it seems pretty clear that this is Custer's, not Reno's, command that they're referring to ... But NOT clear where they're talking about. "Attacking the north end of the village" sounds like a Ford D crossing, or at a pinch Ford C. (Fitting with Big Beaver's map.) It also sounds as if Poland's informants got there when Custer was already in retreat, so they could be only reporting what they've been told by others; they don't say they saw this, or that they themselves drove Custer back. Interesting, though ...

[elisabeth]

One other thing. Poland opens his report by saying that the agent at Standing Rock had told all the Indians in his charge to say nothing whatsoever about the battle. If other agents were doing the same, Sioux and Cheyenne alike will quickly have got the message as to what was and was not acceptable to "remember" about it. (Hence, perhaps, the mass-suicide stories!)

No reason, on the face of it, why Custer getting into the village (IF he did) should become a taboo subject. The only thing I can think of is ... the matter of Jack Sturgis' head. If Reno was right, and the assault force was C, I and E, Sturgis could have been killed in the village. (Porter too, of course.) The agents, and/or the Indians themselves, might have concluded that it was one thing to commit atrocities on an ordinary humble trooper -- but quite another on the son of someone as prominent as Sturgis. Easier to say the cavalry never got into the village at all?

[kenny]

Two of the troopers supposedly came from Reno command.I don't remember how many heads they had found.But two of those heads would had come from Reno own command.If there were more.Either Custer had made it to the village or not.I don't think either Porter and Sturgis where kill in the village.Porter buckskin coat was soak with his own blood.Sturgis underwear was also soak in blood.Which I think they where kill outside of the villiage with evryone else.

[crzhrs]

<As far as Reno's troops getting close enough to fire into the village, you have got to be kidding!!! If they were lucky enough to get within 600 yards(farther than the range of the carbines) of the village, I'd be surprised. AND how do you know they killed non-coms >

There is numerous White and Indian testimony about some of Reno's men and his Ree scouts getting close to the Indian village and killing non-coms:

1. Several officers testified that enlisted men were firing rapidly and depleting their ammo . . . thus many hundreds if not thousands of rounds fired into the village.

2. Runs The Enemy stated that bullets came into the camp from across the river. Pretty White Bull said the bullets rattled into the Hunkpapa and Blackfeet tipis. White Bull said the soldiers' first shots came through the tipis. Moving Robe mentioned the bullets shattering the tipi poles and people being shot down next to their lodges. Crow King told of a woman who was shot while standing near him.

3. Lt. Wallace testified troops got within 75-100 yards of the tipis, while Pvt. Wilber stated that about 10 troopers, including himself, Sgt. Ryan, and Pvt. Rutten, actually got among the Hunkpapa tipis before turning back.

4. Herendeen stated that Ree scouts did kill some woman for the bodies of at least 6 squaws were found in a ravine. Their bodies were later found by Indians and Whites in the southern camp and upstream in the timber and along the river.

There appears ample evidence that part of Reno's command and some of his scouts got close enough to fire into the village and kill non-coms.

Did Custer got close to the northern end of the village?

It appears he and part of his command got very close to a ford further up from where Yates attempted to cross. Custer may have been attempting to capture noncoms, but was stopped by Wolf Tooth's band who poured in a heavy fire that forced Custer back. Whether Custer got close enough to fire into the village I do not know.

[crzhrs]

There were a number of heads cut off, not to mention other body parts. Who's to say the parts were not taken into the village and the bodies left behind.

Bloody Knife's head was cut off and carried around by two young Sioux women throughout the camp. (BK had Sioux and Arikara blood and spent much of his youth with the Sioux who constantly tormented him about his genelogy. Thus once BK was killed and body discovered the Sioux decapitated him and carried his head about as both a trophy and final insult.

It's possible that Inkapduta and/or one of his sons may have cut off the head of Sturgis and others. They were known to have done that in the past.

[Jim]

crzhrs,

So you're telling me that all the maps, specifically Lt. Edward Maguire's Map, drawn by Sgt. Charles Becker, was spatially incorrect. If you are, then explain to me how a round (.45-55, or even a .46-70 caliber round, (that had an effective range of 300 & 600 yds.) carried more than a mile and a half!!!(BASED UPON THE SKIRMISH LINE OF RENO AND THE INDIAN VILLAGE IN HIS MAP)

If you are talking about the lodges on the east side of the river(Blackfeet), then they weren't Hunkpapa's, and according to Lt Wallace's testimony, they were empty upon their entrance into that circle!!! These lodges were just East of the LBH river in a flat plane of land adjacent to the skirmish line of Reno's Battalion.

At a mile-and-a-half, thousands of rounds could have been fired at the camp, but if any of them ever hit anybody, at that range, it would feel like a hail stone hitting you from a severe thunderstorm! -- NOT FATAL!!!

The Ree scouts killed the women who were out in ravines, far from the main village, digging up roots and turnips. AND they were running towards the village when they supposedly got shot , an EASY target for them, who were after horses.

And I think that there were three reported heads, that were burned beyond recognition, in the village. It would not surprise me that these heads were from troopers that made it to the Village from highly excited horses that could not be controlled, as was testified to, and MAYBE Bloody Knife's head.

[crzhrs]

<Runs The Enemy stated that bullets came into the camp from across the river. Pretty White Bull said the bullets rattled into the Hunkpapa and Blackfeet tipis. White Bull said the soldiers' first shots came through the tipis. Moving Robe mentioned the bullets shattering the tipi poles and people being shot down next to their lodges. Crow King told of a woman who was shot while standing near him.>

Above was Indian testimony regarding Reno's command firing into the village. I did not use Gall's statements regarding his family due to his "controversial" testimony. The others had no reason to lie. It's a matter of who do we believe.

As for the 45-55, or even a .46-70 caliber round, (that had an effective range of 300 & 600 yds.) carried more than a mile and a half!!!

When were those rounds fired? During Reno's advance, retreat, by Indians later after capturing soldiers' weapons?

Archaeological evidence is helpful but can also be misleading.