shawn
Junior Member
My sons and I...Reno Hill June 26th 2006
Posts: 98
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Post by shawn on Jan 28, 2006 23:36:49 GMT -6
Im trying to make a map with a timeline and some footnotes, and trying to find all the answers by searching through the other threads is rough. So Ill ask the questions here. At 3:00 p.m. he looks out over Sharphooter, and this is the last anyone saw him alive (Im guessing).
1. Calhoun Hill...Is this the first point where General Custer could, for the first time, see the North end of the village? 2. Also, what else does he see at this point in time? Does he see Crazy Horse and his braves now, or was it earlier on Blummer's? 3. Did he dismiss the scouts here, or on Sharpshooters? 4. And, about what time did he arrive here?
Thanks in advance
Shawn
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Post by El Crab on Jan 29, 2006 1:23:07 GMT -6
1: The north end was around Medicine Tail Ford (Ford B). The village was not nearly as large as it appears. It was rather big, but it was moved after the 25th, thus giving the impression of a much larger village.
2: Custer doesn't see Crazy Horse and his braves, because Crazy Horse and his pals did not move the way they were earlier thought to have. Crazy Horse did not cross north of Last Stand Hill and crush Custer. They split the ridge in the Keogh Sector, and caused the buffalo hunt along the ridge. Again, Crazy Horse was thought to have forded at the north end of the immense village, which wasn't well down the valley, but at Medicine Tail Ford.
3: According to what Gray makes of the accounts, the Crow scouts left around the middle of Cedar Coulee.
4: Not sure, Gray had his idea and its entirely subjective.
Shawn, as a self-professed newbie, you should read Michno's Lakota Noon and eventually Gray's Custer's Last Campaign. Gray's work creates a plausible timeline, but its heavy stuff. But if you're after timing, he's your guy. As for Michno, he really breaks down the immense village stretching miles down the valley myth and the Crazy Horse out of the north myth in Lakota Noon. He also uses Gray's timeline as the backbone for his work. He breaks the battle down into 10 minute segments, which you might find helpful.
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Post by fred on Jan 29, 2006 10:32:03 GMT -6
Shawn--
I'm in total agreement w/ Crab.
1. If Custer didn't see the full extent of the village from Sharpshooters' (if that's where he went)-- & I don't think he could-- then he saw it from either way back on the East/ Luce complex, or when he arrived at Ford B (Medicine Tail Ford).
2. Read Crab, it's perfect.
3. Crab is correct, but I don't believe Gray is. Gray has the timing at 3:26pm, but if the Crows were dismissed in Cedar Coulee, they moved back onto Weir Peak or the bluffs beyond. What's the likelihood of that? At this point, I'm not sure, but as I've said in several other threads, I have plenty of work to do & this is one of those things I need to tackle. From my perspective-- since I have nothing to offer but doubt-- you go w/ Gray & a question mark.
4. Again, ambivalence. Martini claimed the village was asleep; the Crows said Custer didn't leave the heights until he saw Reno in action. What does that mean? Does it mean Reno charging down the valley? Does it mean Reno shooting? Does it mean Reno on his skirmish line? And if the Crows were on Weir or Sharpshooters', why would they travel down into Cedar Coulee, get dismissed, & then travel back up to the bluffs? (And we're pretty sure they were on the bluffs.)
One thing to remember-- & Crab is again correct: Custer's Last Campaign by Gray & Lakota Noon by Michno are required, nay, must[/b] reading-- the timing business is really open to scrutiny. Michno makes no bones about it: he only uses Gray's sequences as a starting point & to put things in perspective (as Crab says). Michno's work was not about the timing, per se, it was about the actions of individual Indians & the sequencing of the battle.
What I'm afraid is happening here is that Gray's work has been taken in such high regard, that his timing is almost bible today. I think he may be compressing the post-divide sequences into too tight a time configuration & I'm thinking-- not in stone yet-- that you may have to add a minimum of 2 hours. That will bring a hail of opprobrium upon my head, but hey, dem's da breaks, as we say in Brooklyn.
Does that help?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by El Crab on Jan 29, 2006 16:42:10 GMT -6
I think too many look at Gray as dealing in absolutes. Its a timeline he came up with, but its not inflexible. Sure, its his idea of how it all went down, but if you think something doesn't quite jive, play with it. Adjust it to fit your theory.
Personally, I think Gray delays Custer's arrival in the north a little too long. But again, Gray just showed us what's possible in the timeframe available.
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