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Post by shan on Jan 19, 2006 8:51:44 GMT -6
Hello Fred, Thanks for that. Yes I too may end up disagreeing with myself before this post finishes, but it seems to be both one of the pleasures, and, { curse it,} one of problems this subject tends to throw up. You think you've got a handle on it at long last, and then bang! something, or someone, comes along with another theory or another angle, and you just have to grit your teeth and change your mind, or at least, some of us do. I have to confess to having resisted parts of Martinis testimony in the past, and, shame faced, I'll cheerfully own up to the fact that I have done so because they didn't fit in with my own ideas as to what happened. Likewise Penningtons theory that Custer was killed at the ford. I don't know why that rankled with me so much, yes there are some drawbacks to it, the main one being, why continue going North under the circumstances, why not head back towards Weir, regroup with Benteen and Reno, and think things over. But those little itches notwithstanding, the idea certainly does make what seemed to have followed, easier to explain than most other theories. Maybe I was too hung up on that romantic image of Custer, a pistol in both hands, going down on all guns blazing on LSH. However, given that everything I've read seems to imply that Custer was both an impetuous, and a recklessly brave man, one of Americas most attack minded generals as Pennington put it, one has to ask oneself the question, how could he do anything else but attack as soon as the opportunity presented itself. The more I mull it over, the less I can imagine him trolling from one ridge to another for God knows how long, waiting for Benteen to show up. As to Michnos idea, having been to the battlefield and seen Medicine Tail Coulee for myself, I must say I have always found it hard to envisage a full on attack using that route. His notion that they came down the slope beside, and not in the coulee, makes a lot more sense to me, Lastly, I have even changed my mind over using Cedar coulee, why take the long way round when there is a quicker easier route, Pennington you old rascal, why are you doing this to me? There's more, but I think I feel a crisis coming on, Shan
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Post by fred on Jan 19, 2006 9:16:56 GMT -6
Careful, shan!
Don't let Pennington lull you to sleep w/ that Custer-killed-at-the-ford business, or his Middle Coulee theory. I bought the Middle Coulee stuff, then I talked to Michno (via e-mail). There are way too many valid arguments against the killed-at-the-ford business, & my biggest gripe w/ Pennington is that he won't hear of any of them. I wound up switching back to Cedar & now I'm giving serious thought to Liddic's "Godfrey Gorge" route, primarily because of Edgerly's writings. So, for the time being, the "fred school" is out on that one.
I reaching the point now where I may have to develop a new chart for my notes & call it the "veracity" chart. Martini seems to be one of the more truthful, but I think sometimes his memory may prove faulty; there was a lot going on.
Also, one of my real bug-a-boos is this attack business at Ford B. Reading your last post makes me think you feel Custer was heading, hell-bent-for-leather, to attack the village there. Before you convince yourself of that, ask yourself, would you-- as shan-- charge down the ridge or the coulee-- whichever-- & attack a village, leaving 60+% of your force on the high ridges, 1 to 1 1/2 miles away? To me, if your answer is, "yes, I'd do it," then I think you better go back to tactics 101. I have a fairly substantial background in the military, & I've been studying small unit tactics for years, both in & out of the service. It bugs the hell out of me when I read or hear these mess hall tacticians (as I call them), spouting off w/ all these theories. I love Greg Michno's work; I really like Bruce Liddic's stuff; but both of them espouse some cockamamie ideas regarding tactics.
Liddic, for example, says Custer sent (I think it was) F & C Companies to Ford B to "secure" it. Why? What sense does that make? Secure it, then leave it 10 minutes later? C'mon! Michno has this idea that the reason Custer moved farther north was so that he could put distance between himself & Benteen, draw the Indians into the void, then turn & hit them while they're between himself & Benteen! The ol' hammer & anvil! Have you any idea how difficult a maneuver such as that would be to carry out today w/ all our sophisticated commo? And Greg's got them doing it when Custer didn't even know where Benteen was?
In my opinion, Custer went to Ford B to have a good old fashioned lookee-see! Then he rode north for some other reasons. What were they?
Attack at Ford B? Hogwash!
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by shan on Jan 19, 2006 14:02:20 GMT -6
Don't worry Fred,
Penningtons dismissal of everyone else who dare to think differently from him, means that I only listen to him with one hand over my eyes, and the other over one ear. Having said that, in his favour, he has made me look at some of my assumptions, and indeed go back to some of those books he tackles head on, and see that in some cases, he has a point.
As to Custer being killed at the ford, my main gripe with that, is that only White Cow Bull seems to have seen this incident. The others, men like Bobtail Horse, Roan Bear, and Calf, men acknowledged to have been there by a number of other Indians, fail to mention even seeing White Cow Bull, let alone killing an officer. Perhaps even more importantly, they talk about crossing the river and halting the soldiers advance on the East side. They then go on to talk of others joining them in this fight, but strangely, especially given that the two sides can't have been that far apart, they don't mention any casualties on either side.
I suppose it's possible that Custer was indeed killed, but that it was somewhere other than LSH, Calhoun say, or even along the ridge, { I don't think I've ever read anyone proposing that possibility,} if he was, then one could quite understand those around him taking his body to LSH, where they attempted to form some sort of defensive position, not a good place for it, but by then, beggars can't be choosers. Possible, yes, but not I think, dragging his body all over the battlefield after he had been killed at the ford. By the way, it would have been killed not wounded at the ford, either of those wounds the witnesses mention seeing on his body, would have killed him within minutes, if not instantly. I've talked this over with a friend from the states, a man that deals with these kinds of wounds every day of the week, and he is adamant that there is no chance that the man lived more than a minute or two at the most.
No, I'm just paraphrasing Martini about the hell bent for the ford bit. To tell you the truth Fred, I don't what I think about any of it at the moment. A couple of days ago I was cocksure and certain, chapter 3 was going swimmingly, I positively knew that I had cracked it at last, everything was looking good. Then, well, never reach to check somebody elses opinion when you are in full flow.
And now, just to confuse me even more, you mention Godfrey's Gorge. I'm afraid I haven't yet read Liddic, so tell me, where is this Godfrey's Gorge, sounds a bit like like one of your diners over there. Shan
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Post by fred on Jan 19, 2006 15:28:59 GMT -6
Shan--
You make me laugh; you sound just like me! One day it's one thing, the next day it's something else. And I believe you & your friend are correct about GAC's wounds; I think someone over here mentioned the same thing, which makes his body on Last Stand Hill appear even more ridiculous if he was shot at the ford.
Each one of these writers has his own little take on what happened. Michno's, of course, has to do w/ the route of march, namely, E & F Companies using the high ground to reach a certain distance from Ford B, rather than MTC. Yates (Custer's way back w/ Keogh's battalion) then essentially backtracks-- ergo, eschewing the Deep Coulee route-- using the more northerly part of the high ground. The 2 commands meet on Blummer's/(Nye)-Cartwright, unite, cross the upper region of Deep Coulee, & on to Calhoun Hill, etc. Not a bad scenario, & very, very difficult to disprove, especially in light of the fact that no bodies were found in Deep Coulee except CPL Foley & 1SG Butler, both the subject of a weird incident that may have taken place later in the battle, an incident corroborated by Indian testimony.
Of course, the one little fact Michno forgot about was that the trumpeter, Henry Dose, was found near the ford. His argument would be stronger were he to have included Custer & HQ w/ Yates' men. Personally, I[/b] think that was the make-up of the troops who went toward MT Ford.
Pennington's contributions--please, again, in my humble opinion-- lie not with the nonsense about Custer's death, but w/ the "timing of the battle" scenario & his analysis of the Reno Court of Inquiry business. Also-- & this is greatly overlooked-- Pennington feels it took Reno up to 40 or 45 minutes to cross the LBH at Ford A, water, tie down equipment, & reform, move out of the timber, line up his command & then start down the valley. Everyone else gives that anywhere between 5 & 15 minutes. Pennington makes great sense & his scenario may screw up the whole timing sequence for what we think happened. If he's correct, it could change a lot of what we feel about the battle.
Liddic's major contribution, I believe, is that he feels Custer never went to Weir Peak[/b], but actually viewed the valley from Sharpshooters' Ridge-- the east side, no less-- then moved off northwards using some sort of swale he calls Godfrey's Gorge, which lies to the east of Cedar Coulee. This swale also empties into MTC. If I'm correct-- & that's a big "if"-- & you look at the McElfresh map, the swale runs out between 2 small bluffs, & from there, Liddic has Custer swinging left, crossing Cedar Coulee right near its bottom, & then entering MTC. The Godfrey's Gorge scenario!
Obviously, Liddic adds testimony to prove his case! And you know something, Shan? It's good evidence: LT Winfield Scott Edgerly & the fact that no one[/b] could find Custer's tracks into MTC after the battle. Maybe there's a good reason for that, but I certainly haven't heard it.
So... . There you have it. At this point in my life, I think all of these can be reasonably resolved & that's the task I've set for myself. I'm some distance away from it, but I think we can[/b] get closer. One of the few things I feel very[/b] strongly about is the composition of the command at Ford B; not the route, mind you, the composition. That particular point I'll argue w/ anyone. The rest...?
See ya later, m' boy! (or, m'girl, as the case may be; I've been surprised before!!)
Best wishes, Fred.
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shawn
Junior Member
My sons and I...Reno Hill June 26th 2006
Posts: 98
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Post by shawn on Jan 19, 2006 21:43:06 GMT -6
According to my book, the only evidence that there was an incident at MTF, was Indian testimony and a couple bodies in the area. Nothing to show as far as a fight (dead horses, spent rounds, etc). Some people claim that there was shod horse tracks going in and out of the ford. I can believe that, but nothing proves that US Cavalry were riding them. They could have been US horses taken by the Indians. Not to mention the fact that the ford was probably used regularly after the Custer fight for two more days, so the only tracks that could be seen was those made by the Indians. The body of Butler (Butler was also mentioned in my book) had something like 18 spent cartriges around him (the only US casings in the vicinity), and his horse had only three shoes (the other found towards Last Stand Hill ), I guess this means Butler died heading towards MTF area (north fork of MTC is the same as deep coulee?), probably one of the last to die during the battle. So perhaps the other bodies were comming from Last Stand Hill also, and not from MTF. It looked as though Butler and the others were heading towards Weir Point.
But who knows? My book was made in 1985, so more discoveries were probably made since then
P.S. I cant seem to find ford a on my map, where is it?
Shawn
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Post by shan on Jan 20, 2006 4:09:15 GMT -6
Fred,
tell me this if you will, if you are taking this theory of Liddics seriously, the one that has Custer skirting around the back of Sharpshooter hill, and then, safely out of sight, taking what look like a cross country route to get to MTc, and then on to MTF, how are you to explain both Martini's evidence, and those sightings from the valley, all of which place Custer's command riding along the bluffs in full view of any one who cared to look their way?
This is evidence from not just one source, but several different ones, all, I'm guessing, with no particular issue to sell. If one man says something, well, there is always a um, ah, yes, maybe feel about it, but more than one? Well; you get my jist.
Incidentally, { and here I have to don the wig and gown of devils advocate,} how come no Indians saw Custer's parade along the bluffs? 7/8 thousand people, and not one looked up thought they must be dreaming?
Meantime, I'm afraid two timing Pennington, been hanging around with old Michno again, nothing serious, just checking out a couple of points you raised. What do you think old grumpy guts would think about that?
Sun's rising, what will it be today? Brush or pen? Decisions decisions.
Shan
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Post by shatonska on Jan 20, 2006 7:14:31 GMT -6
Fred, tell me this if you will, if you are taking this theory of Liddics seriously, the one that has Custer skirting around the back of Sharpshooter hill, and then, safely out of sight, taking what look like a cross country route to get to MTc, and then on to MTF, how are you to explain both Martini's evidence, and those sightings from the valley, all of which place Custer's command riding along the bluffs in full view of any one who cared to look their way? This is evidence from not just one source, but several different ones, all, I'm guessing, with no particular issue to sell. If one man says something, well, there is always a um, ah, yes, maybe feel about it, but more than one? Well; you get my jist. Incidentally, { and here I have to don the wig and gown of devils advocate,} how come no Indians saw Custer's parade along the bluffs? 7/8 thousand people, and not one looked up thought they must be dreaming? Meantime, I'm afraid two timing Pennington, been hanging around with old Michno again, nothing serious, just checking out a couple of points you raised. What do you think old grumpy guts would think about that? Sun's rising, what will it be today? Brush or pen? Decisions decisions. Shan moving robe and red horse and people on western hills digging turnips saw custer on the ridge east of lbh, went back to village and were surprised by Reno's attack coming from the valley ford a is under Reno hill a bit farther south , how can we know the horse shoe is butler's horse one ?
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Post by fred on Jan 20, 2006 7:18:58 GMT -6
Shawn-- Oh, there were soldiers at MT Ford (akaFord B) alright. The question is, how close to the water did they get? The Indians say, not close, yet you have clear testimony that one soldier, stripes on his sleeve & riding a gray horse, bolted into the river, crossed it & was butchered in the village. Smart money (mine as well) says that unfortunate fellow was SGT John S. Ogden. Apparently, there is a small knoll set back from the general area of the flats which form the delta area of the crossing & that knoll is where most of the troops gathered. (That would fit in w/ Michno.) E Company got closer to the water (that would also fit, since Yates would probably remain w/ Custer on the knoll), possibly some or all of its men dismounting for a brief time to "hold" the crossing, & then the soldiers left. What route they took is now disputed by Michno. Deep Coulee is the generally accepted route; Michno says they took the high ground.
The business w/ 1SG Butler is interesting. The archeologist, Richard Fox, says there was an incident where 4 mounted troopers attempted to escape from Battle Ridge/ the Keogh Sector/ Calhoun Hill area. Two of those 4 were CPL Foley & 1SG Butler, whose bodies were found in Deep Coulee. Bruce Liddic has a different twist on the "4 riders" theme, saying Custer, sitting atop Calhoun Hill, decided to send back another message to Benteen. Fearing 1 man couldn't get through, he sent 4. One was Butler, another was Foley, a 3rd was Trumpeter Dose, & a 4th was unknown. My problem w/ that scenario is, why would Calhoun send his 1st sergeant? Why would men from at least 3 different commands be sent? It's stupid! & I think contrived. Fox' idea makes better sense. Trumpteter Dose was probably killed as the Custer/ Yates wing moved back away from the ford. If I'm not mistaken, Dose's body was the nearest to the ford. So from my perspective, Shawn, you are probably correct w/ your idea of Butler trying to escape.
Now, shan--
I'm not sold on Liddic's theory of Godfrey's Gorge/ Sharpshooters' Ridge. I think it's interesting & I think it may be possible. The men seen on the ridges hadn't yet reached either the Weir Peak or Sharpshooters' areas yet & if you look at a map, you'll see that Custer's route along the bluffs leads directly to Sharpshooters' Ridge long before it approaches Weir Peak. Also, on the ground-- I am told-- Sharpshooters' looks to be the tallest hill in the area. There is also testimony that claims that once atop the "hill," they couldn't see the area in the valley close to the bluffs. From Weir Peak, that wouldn't be the case, but from Sharpshooters' it would. So Liddic has a good argument there.
As for other testimony of having "seen" Custer & others, look at the distances involved. DeRudio claims he could tell it was Custer & Cooke from more than 1/2 mile away. Try driving along the Interstate or the Autostrada or the Autobahn, & looking at a bridge 1/2 mile away & tell me if you can make out what a person looks like. And here's DeRudio, in the woods, probably without his fine Austrian glasses, smoke & dust all around him, telling us he could see Custer from that distance. I have problems w/ DeRudio!
I'll write more later-- got to walk the dog!
See ya! Fred.
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Post by fred on Jan 20, 2006 8:40:05 GMT -6
Shan & Shawn--
(Sounds like a rock group!)
Yes, North Medicine Tail Coulee is the same as Deep Coulee. Every place on or near the battlefield has about 35 different names!
Also, the Indians did[/b] see Custer & his men on the bluffs. There were Indians there before the soldiers passed Reno Hill. It was (according to Michno & a zillion others) these Indians who first alerted the warriors in the valley that more soldiers, i.e., Custer's column, was threatening the village.
Best wishes, Fred.
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shawn
Junior Member
My sons and I...Reno Hill June 26th 2006
Posts: 98
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Post by shawn on Jan 20, 2006 18:51:05 GMT -6
According to my book, there was fairly early contact at the south east top of blummers ridge (starting about 20 or so minutes before Gall)...something like 400 US rounds were found, and something like 60 or so Indian rounds. Perhaps the men seen towards MTF were chasing these Indians, and then Gall started his appearance, the men went back up blummers to meet the rest of the command. About 200 or so yards North West of the first skirmish, a volley of 39 rounds was found. If a vector is drawn between these two places where the casings were found, Calhoun's position is right in line (probably to retard Gall)...but who knows?
Weibert also states that Custer probably looked out over Sharpshooter ridge. He drove a marker into the ground and went to Reno's position and it looks just like the marker is on the bluff overlooking the valley, but its one ridge over...interesting, huh?
According to my book, the horse of Butlers was an exceptional horse, and exceptional horses wore a special type of shoe. The shoe found was one of these special shoes.
Shawn
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Post by d o harris on Jan 23, 2006 7:03:55 GMT -6
re: Pennington's concept that Reno delayed 40-45 minutes before moving downstream. If we accept that Reno sent McIlhargey with a message to Custer and waited for a reply, and then sent Mitchell, and waited for a reply then we are stuck with the 40-45 minute scenario. On the other hand, if Reno moved out in 15 minutes or so the idea that he sent two messengers to Custer is certainly diminished. If the 40-45 minute delay is correct it virtually destroys any excuse Benteen has for not arriving in time to go to Reno's assistance in the valley.
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Post by fred on Jan 23, 2006 8:24:13 GMT -6
d o harris--
That's Pennington's whole point. He combines the 40-45 minutes it took Reno to cross the LBH, water, & re-organize, w/ crossing the divide at 10am instead of noon, & contrived testimony at the RCOI w/ a conspiracy/cover-up that would exonerate Benteen & Reno, or at least mitigate their "culpability" because of the time element involved.
The problem I have w/ all of that is that Pennington, in one way or another, draws virtually every officer in the command into the conspiracy, e.g., Reno, Benteen, DeRudio, Varnum, Edgerly, Godfrey, Hare, Gibson, Moylan, McDougall, et al. You & I are similar in age & I'm sure you'd agree, you get more than 2 people into a conspiracy & it turns into a frat party.
I think Pennington's on to something w/ his 10am-divide-crossing, but I also think 40-45 minutes at Ford A may be a little too long (30 minutes seems better to me) & I think Pennington himself is jukin' the evidence to support his pet theory. I'm a Benteen supporter because I think there is too much evidence, too much testimony, & too many fortuitous circumstances that tell me Benteen's actions, while maybe not laudable, were certainly not negligent & responsible for Custer's demise. I have tried-- on any number of occasions-- to thrust myself into his shoes, ignore what I know about the battle & just figure what I would do at each & every turn, ravine, meeting, & comment. Not a lot different from him, I'll tell you. If you want to drop a letter of reprimand in his 201-File because he didn't bust a gut to get to Custer, well... I guess it would depend upon the boss.
The problem is, knowing what we know today-- & even after the battle, enough was known-- I find it extremely difficult to believe arguments that either Reno or Benteen caused the failure. Sound military maneuvers were defeated, surprise was defeated, organization & discipline were defeated, supposedly superior firepower was defeated, solid battle experience was defeated, all because there were just too many Indians.
Maybe that attitude defeats the purpose of these boards (could it really have been that simple?), but... I guess that's why we debate it, right?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 23, 2006 8:44:36 GMT -6
Girard told Cooke that the Indians were not running but were making a stand. This was before Reno even started his attack on the village.
So Custer must have been told by Cooke that info . . . it's just a matter of how long it took for Cooke to get to Custer.
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Post by fred on Jan 23, 2006 9:10:59 GMT -6
crzhrs--
I'm not sure of your point here... or did I not read something that you were referring to, above?
Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 23, 2006 9:45:47 GMT -6
Fred:
Sorry . . . got mixed up with where this thread was going. Ignore post!
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