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Post by noggy on Mar 30, 2024 12:16:21 GMT -6
I like the idea of Custer/Reno advancing wide past the dry oxbow (think it was dry?) before the NA's could man it. Maybe an L formation front and left flank on foot with 2-3 Mounted Co's covering the rear and right. But will Benteen bring pac's? Would think the level ground would intensify volley or random fire into the village enough to force them out. Would they regroup effectively. But What about the horses. And would it be like Washington at fort necessity without the fort and be stuck in the low ground. Hi! Many "uncertains" here, indeed. A big question is how long it would take the 7th to actually (physically) organize a large scale attack involving the majority of the regiment into attack formation. And what the NAs would do when they eventually discovered them lining up. Regardless, i feel that as long as the regiment kept together and maybe even just advanced slowly, they would do just fine. Slim Buttes is an example of the NAs struggling when not being able to pick off US troops picemal (wrong spelled but something like it). I am convinced large parts of the camp at the minimum could have been destroyed. Didn't even have to be a classic Errol Flynn cavalry charge, just and "omnious" approach. We are talking about humans in the camp who had wives, children and elders who's safe-being meant the world to them. But this again comes down to leadership from officers and NCOs, and the men. For instance, GAC was no Crook  (Maybe another subject, if not already taken, is wheter or not Crook gets off a little easy for his post-Rosebud actions?-Montrose would say no and if so i'd have to agree out of duty  ) All the best, Noggy |
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Post by backwater on Apr 2, 2024 23:13:36 GMT -6
"I am convinced large parts of the camp at the minimum could have been destroyed. Didn't even have to be a classic Errol Flynn cavalry charge, just and "omnious" approach." Reno was so close and life was pretty hot in south end of camp. With Custer + the 5 Co's i think they stay in the valley but survive as a unit. NA's were going to hold them off till non combatants are mounted and off a way's if they could. I think they (NA's) and history shows that they were not running that day. So i think Custer is going to need to find ground he can defend after the tide ebbs.
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Post by noggy on Apr 3, 2024 9:51:45 GMT -6
"I am convinced large parts of the camp at the minimum could have been destroyed. Didn't even have to be a classic Errol Flynn cavalry charge, just and "omnious" approach." Reno was so close and life was pretty hot in south end of camp. With Custer + the 5 Co's i think they stay in the valley but survive as a unit. NA's were going to hold them off till non combatants are mounted and off a way's if they could. I think they (NA's) and history shows that they were not running that day. So i think Custer is going to need to find ground he can defend after the tide ebbs. The NA warriors would have to safely evacuate thousands of panicked non-combatants, who probably outnumbered the fighting force with...well, 7, 8, 9.10 to 1 or something? In addition to getting horses, and I don't think the warriors would just let the civilians run away into the wild unprotected, they would have to safe-keep them somehow. Reno's smal force, which wisely enough stopped, created havoc. 8-9 companies who kept approaching in some way would probably lead to even more chaos. I think the areas where Reno advanced was pretty decent from a US perspective, apart from the "trench". Very unlike the hilly areas on the other side of the river, which the NAs could use to get close to the soldiers. So their rifles would be a lethal asset on the plain. But ofc, if say you had "Elliotts" or in other way cohesion broke, large and sudden US casualties would be the result, and again I am skeptical to the capacity of officers and non-coms and soldiers alike to fight a large, regimental sized fight at this scale. All the best, Noggy |
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Post by backwater on Apr 3, 2024 11:31:46 GMT -6
Agree, the trapdoor would have been much better in the valley and the more the better. If Custer had went in with Reno or followed in reserve he'd be committed to the valley, not enough troops or time for any maneuvering. Objective is right in front of them if they could take it. I might get a chance to go there next month depending on a family Situation in Montana. Take care
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Post by noggy on Apr 5, 2024 2:28:28 GMT -6
Agree, the trapdoor would have been much better in the valley and the more the better. If Custer had went in with Reno or followed in reserve he'd be committed to the valley, not enough troops or time for any maneuvering. Objective is right in front of them if they could take it. I might get a chance to go there next month depending on a family Situation in Montana. Take care The thing with this battle is, like I have mentioned, that there were many objectives. Or, many ways to achieving what the US govt wanted. I do not think tha NAs, regardless of the warrior's reaction in a setting like described, could have been able to secure a complete evacuation including packing down their entire camp plus supplies, get their pony herd, evacuate civilians and leave in an orderly fashion. Something which would have a deep impact n their ability to continue roaming would have happened. I hope you get to go, I am very envious of those who get to go there ever so often. I hope to one day make the trip myself, but that bloody Atlantic thingy is quite difficult and expensive to cross... All the best, Noggy. |
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Post by backwater on Apr 9, 2024 22:33:02 GMT -6
Sorry i got proboard lost. As to NA's ability to protect an evacuation i think they had a better chance then at powder river in March against Crooks man Reynolds. They lost the village but somehow kept a few horses and stole back many more later. Of course the soldiers left first. Crook said after this battle they were more openly defiant then ever. Crook didn't follow up there or rosebud, nor did Custer at the Washita. I think he would have waited for Terry, if he went in the valley as he'd be pined down like reno on the hill. The village would be left standing at least in the south end and would be gone by morning probably. So they would be without a big percent of their supplies butmaybe only 30 percent of households lose all. horses i think they could manage enough as they had so many. But they would break up and more would head back to the rez. Don't know how it effects the timeline. How bad was that
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Post by herosrest on Apr 10, 2024 20:07:30 GMT -6
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Moore_(soldier)www.newspapers.com/image/81271478/?clipping_id=9833223&fcfToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJmcmVlLXZpZXctaWQiOjgxMjcxNDc4LCJpYXQiOjE3MTI3OTkwODEsImV4cCI6MTcxMjg4NTQ4MX0.3DF7FUjMAMdHoltztue5nszTho-qtv3NGv5O0HyJcUsSome relevant stuff. At Powder River Reynolds deployed five battalions to make the attack. It was one of the coldest winters ever. It was not just Reynolds who was courtmartialled and CYA was going on afterwards. A similar method of attack was employed at Washita with expectation that the camp would scatter and flee. There was no way that Custer would throw eleven companies onto the camps. It simply didn't work that way in the military then, or now. The St. Patrick's Day fight on Two Moon's camp offers relevant tactics. The Rosebud fight of June 1876 was Crook caught having a poop, while his command brewed coffee without a perimeter established and no effective local scouting as an avalanch of Sioux and Cheyenne tried to take the unpicketed cavalry horses. Crook rallied and then tried to advance a cavalry column at an imaginary village, while his cavalry was overstretched and very nearly destroyed in place unsupported. Action reports on that battle are... A pile of rubbish. Crook was more than lucky to not have been Clustered but you don't get that written up in reports. At Garryowen, one battalion would go onto the western hills to prevent precisely what happened to Reno. That would be Benteen Another battalion would go onto the flat east of the river and camp ala pony stealers. The fourth battalion would stand in reserve. Reno would still have the frontal attack on the standing camp and no way out of it. Get in their and drive the occupants out. Such is life. Reno hits the camp dismounts into chaos and urban warfare. Keogh gets thrown in to reinforce and Benteen drives in from the west. As long as a threat to the non-coms is maintained the defenders are drawn away from Reno to to stand off any cavalry move to take hostages or capture the families. It:s a numbers game to take and hold the standing tipis and then destroy them. With that done the Indian day is ruined and morale collapsed. Game over.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 10, 2024 20:38:53 GMT -6
The linked article above about Crook's attack on Two Moon, is followed by an update of re-organisation of the army which was due to lose 20% of its regiments. This aspect of affairs is little known of and was voted on again on...... 25th June 1876. In many ways the Custer Debacle was the army's saving grace where until then, the financial disaster of 1873 and attendant bean counting, ruled the political roost. Of course the discovery of an entire huge hill of high grade silver ore at Stillwater was fortuitous and was the actual reason being the expedition which established Ft. Pease. After which F.D. Pease hurried off east to get finance and backing for two smelters to work the ore. That effort was delayed by the military setbacks of 1876 but came to fruition and then caused a few heart attacks as the Next Perce sortied north. You cannot dream this stuff up. The silver was initially moved by stage coach to river landings and onwards by riverboat when they were running. The 7th Cavalry's fourth doctor was delayed in arriving to FAL for May 1876 but went on to become director of...... The US Mint. His name was.... Hmmmm I wrote it up years ago. Anyways en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Silver_Purchase_ActSome background on silver bullion. |
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Post by herosrest on Apr 10, 2024 20:46:25 GMT -6
James P. Kimball lbha.proboards.com/thread/4219/custers-missing-doctor-james-kimball Yup, an entire HUGE hill of high grade (60-80%) silver ore. That was kept rather quiet but an awful lot of powerful figures started visiting Yellowstone immediately Kimball got back from his first deployment there with...2nd Cav. A film in the waiting and boy, oh boy, oh boy - what a story. Of course the Crow tribe gave up that ore and their agency moved from Stillwater to... Somewhere or other. 😠|
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Post by herosrest on Apr 10, 2024 21:09:06 GMT -6
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowstone_National_Park Some of the fascinating real history from sparse records www.mtgenweb.com/yellowstone/history/settlers.htm is interesting reading and has spit fourth a hit with YOGO, which settlement holds the key to nailing down the messenger sent with despatches from 7th Cavalry (Custer) to the Far West on the Yellowstone, arriving 24th June 1876, via Tulloch CK. and noted in the personal diary of Lt. Carland as duty Officer Officer onboard. Carland knew the scout as a friend of his son, who was employed with civilians for the march from FAL. That scout later served under N,A. Miles at Ft. Keogh and went on to be post master near the YOGO mines settlement. That was William Sellew who was married into the Blackfeet Tribe. 24th June 1876, scout from 7th Cav arrived to Far West on the Yellowstone via the eastern flank of Tulloch CK. And of course, using its east fork. If I remember, he found sign of a Sioux, or some think Cheyenne, hunting party by seeing wounded buffalo. I have a photo of the guy somewhere. His wife also. His family have posted on the board. He was well thought of by N.A. Miles and was another Charley Reynolds. He had some adventures in settling at YOGO and a death or two resulted from difficulties with other settlers. There will be a book in this, once it fully unravels. He is verbatim in several pages of a period frontier book and filed on Montana Memory Project. He would have known Fellows D. Pease and that remains an open strand of interest. Isn't this stuff amazing. It's the minutae and of course no one has time for it. Of course, Company B, 7th Cavalry spent a lot of time detached to Ft. Keogh during the 1877 campaign and there in lies more lovely. Company man was old Tom and boy oh boy, he just thought the World shone out of one of his superiors saddle contact. Buried the men of his old company, he did. In a deep ravine. A deep ravine one hundred yards from LBH where they lay dead. Quite remarkable to have that under oath in 1879, while the world today knows what it doesn't know it doesn't know about that. Onwards. This one goes where the other one goes. A E yo A E yo.
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Post by noggy on Apr 11, 2024 4:15:41 GMT -6
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Post by backwater on Apr 11, 2024 10:08:31 GMT -6
Sellew was known as Slue? Seen it it in the notes section of a book called Champion buffalo hunter...https://www.google.com/books/edition/Champion_Buffalo_Hunter/j3JN29va0l8C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=William+Sellew+Champion+Buffalo+Hunter+notes&pg=PA266&printsec=frontcover
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Post by herosrest on Apr 11, 2024 19:48:26 GMT -6
noggy. The axemen cometh. What a blast....
BW - Alva Josiah Noyes
In the land of Chinook; or, The story of Blaine county - The book can be read on archive.org
Sellew ended his days near Browning running the post office. Just a few miles from saphire mountain and its mines. Fascinating stuff about..... rock. 🤣
I've been dragged back into 'Smoke on the Water' now and Pink Floyd now. Anyone remember 'Money' ?
50 years ago..... Ho hum.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 11, 2024 19:50:47 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Apr 11, 2024 19:53:54 GMT -6
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(Maybe another subject, if not already taken, is wheter or not Crook gets off a little easy for his post-Rosebud actions?-Montrose would say no and if so i'd have to agree out of duty 
)
