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Post by sirfrancis on Oct 26, 2023 22:13:10 GMT -6
Question 1: Could Reno have stayed in the timber longer than he did? I've seen comments that the Indians didn't like fighting in timber (RCOI) also the number of survivors that stayed in the timber despite being spotted going in by the Indians. Could he have held out longer, been joined by Benteen, thereby drawing enough numbers from the village to give Custer a shot at the non combatants?
Question 2: His retreat from the timber was made without bugle call, thereby leaving the last company unaware of the order and straggling and some men not leaving at all. Most casualties were incurred on this 'stampede' run to the river and across. Why wasn't a covering detachment deployed at least by the first across the river?
Or had he stayed in the timber would it be likely that both his and Benteen's battalions would have been isolated and destroyed in turn.......as well as also finishing off Custer.
Francis
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 27, 2023 0:42:04 GMT -6
Well Francis, let me answer at least one of your questions, could he had held out in the timbers, well each soldier in Renos battalion had 100 rounds before they formed skirmish line and by the time they pulled back into the timber, many had gone through half of their consignment, so how long could they had held on with less than 50 rounds each I don't know.
The longer he stayed the more they grew stronger.
Ian
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Post by noggy on Oct 27, 2023 1:14:50 GMT -6
Could he have stayed longer? Sure. Would it have been a good move? I doubt it. Scratch that; no, it wouldn't. And unless memory fails me, wasn't the forest starting to be infiltrated by warriors? They did at least try to set it on fire. Ian points out the situation wit ammo too. Staying would probablybe a death sentence, since they could not have held the NAs off that long, and it would not simply have been for Benteen to just ride over there and relieve them. I believe Ford A was cut off, so crossing might have been an issue? But I don't know how the terrain (slopes, depth of water) was where Benteen would hav had to cross if in a rush to reach Reno. If it was anything like where Reno's troops crossed when heading for the hights, it would be bad. The forest would be a terrible place to try to reorganize, both battalions would have had to regroup somewhere else, start resupplying Reno's troop, handle wounded etc. I think it would have been a mess with enemies all around. Leaving the forest was the right thing to do, the way it was done was wrong and proved costly. Yet I still see surprisingly many people claim Reno should have "pulled a von Paulus" All the best, Noggy
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Post by sirfrancis on Oct 27, 2023 2:30:22 GMT -6
Hey guys,
Interesting points.
I found this in Gordon Harper's 'Fights on the Little Horn': When the two expedited pack mules were brought ahead to Reno Hill with 2 x 1000 round boxes. "Packer Churchill testified no ammo was issued at that time on the hill from what he had brought up'. Lt Wallace testifies he saw one of the 2 boxes opened and some men helping themselves. So it appears that Major Reno's command was not so badly in need of ammunition after all. In fact Major Reno does not allege that as his reason for leaving the timber"
Of course his main reason was to save his and his men's scalps. I take your point that if Reno had stayed in the timber then of course he would have needed more ammo in a hot contest. In the real timeline the Indians did not follow up the hill and many quickly headed toward Custer so what ammo they had sufficed for a while. Still I'm surprised after a hot 60-75min of contact it appears they still had reasonable ammo. Well they were trapdoor single shots so not like a lever Winchester!
PS I'll correct what I said about the bugle. This is from the RCOI Lt Hare : "a bugle was sounded on the advance but no signal note warned the command that it was to leave the timber"
PS By Von Paulus you mean stick it out to the end.......? Coz it was kinda Hitler than ordered him to lol
Francis
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 27, 2023 4:07:24 GMT -6
Benteen, RCOI
Q. State in your opinion whether, with the pack train and your battalion, it would have been practicable to have joined Major Reno in the timber if he had remained there from the circumstances as known to you then or as developed afterwards. A. If I had undertaken it my losses would have been very much greater than they were as it resulted. Q. Do you mean the entire loss to the command? A. The entire loss to the seven companies. In a word, I mean to say that what we did was the best that could be done. That if I had to go over it again today I would go over the same trail, that is, I could not improve it.
Q. State, in your opinion, whether or not 100 men with an average of 60 rounds of ammunition per man could have held that position any considerable length of time. A. They could have held it 5 or 6 hours, depending altogether upon the number of the opposing force. Q. From the character of the enemy they were engaging at the time, and the manner in which Indians usually fight, say those 900 there? A. They might have been reinforced by 900 more in a short time, and early the next morning they would all have been killed. Q. That is, if the command remained there without reinforcements or assistance? A. I think so.
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Post by sirfrancis on Oct 27, 2023 5:00:17 GMT -6
Benteen, RCOI Q. State in your opinion whether, with the pack train and your battalion, it would have been practicable to have joined Major Reno in the timber if he had remained there from the circumstances as known to you then or as developed afterwards. A. If I had undertaken it my losses would have been very much greater than they were as it resulted. Q. Do you mean the entire loss to the command? A. The entire loss to the seven companies. In a word, I mean to say that what we did was the best that could be done. That if I had to go over it again today I would go over the same trail, that is, I could not improve it. Q. State, in your opinion, whether or not 100 men with an average of 60 rounds of ammunition per man could have held that position any considerable length of time. A. They could have held it 5 or 6 hours, depending altogether upon the number of the opposing force. Q. From the character of the enemy they were engaging at the time, and the manner in which Indians usually fight, say those 900 there? A. They might have been reinforced by 900 more in a short time, and early the next morning they would all have been killed. Q. That is, if the command remained there without reinforcements or assistance? A. I think so. So if 100 men could hold for 5-6 hours how long would the 7 companies hold out? I suppose the key is whether it would have provided Custer with the opening to take the non coms even if Reno/Benteen incurred more casualties. If enough Indians were forced to cover Reno / Benteen due to their close proximity to the village. Custer wouldn't need 5-6 hours, and they could have had 5000 extra warriors but if Custer got to the women they would have surrendered. Ahh what ifs....
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 27, 2023 5:28:31 GMT -6
Hmmm...
if the command stayed together - and Custer followed Reno in, and Benteen was right there, and somehow they kept the pack train safe...that's a lot of force all at one point.
Have to think on if the timber was re-inforced by...Benteen...
LOTS of differing opinions on the timber for prolonged defense, how much ammo was used, etc...The RCOI is loaded with them.
Wallace A. My opinion is they knew from the time we left the mouth of the Rosebud, on the 22nd of June, what we were doing and exactly which way we were moving. Our scouts saw their scouts that morning watching us and saw them riding back into the village. They knew of our approach and were ready to receive us. After we crossed the stream and moved towards the village their running was only a sham. They ran in and as we moved up they came back to meet us. ... They knew of our approach and were ready to receive us.
Q. Describe to the Court, if you know, what were the direct causes that led to Major Reno’s command quitting that position. A. The direct causes, I think, were we were surrounded and in a bad position to defend ourselves and we were going to get on higher ground.
Q. Describe the character of the timbered ground in the vicinity of Major Reno’s command with reference to the position of that command..and state whether or not that timber could have been occupied by Major Reno’s command for the purposes of defense or attack, and whether or not it would have subserved such purpose, giving in full the facts in support of your opinion. A.That piece of woods was not over 25 yards wide and in there, there was nothing to afford protection. As a party of Indians on the side on which the creek was could fire directly in it though the bank would afford a little protection. I don’t think it would have subserved the purpose and I don’t think we could have remained there and defended ourselves.
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Post by sirfrancis on Oct 27, 2023 21:19:34 GMT -6
Hmmm... Q. Describe the character of the timbered ground in the vicinity of Major Reno’s command with reference to the position of that command..and state whether or not that timber could have been occupied by Major Reno’s command for the purposes of defense or attack, and whether or not it would have subserved such purpose, giving in full the facts in support of your opinion. A.That piece of woods was not over 25 yards wide and in there, there was nothing to afford protection. As a party of Indians on the side on which the creek was could fire directly in it though the bank would afford a little protection. I don’t think it would have subserved the purpose and I don’t think we could have remained there and defended ourselves. Yeah 25 yards isn't much, I thought it was a bigger spread. Also sounds like it was lighter timber not affording much protection. They are cottonwoods from memory....so not a very thick trunk? All 12 companies hitting that village in the valley would have been hard to stop them getting to the women....even with 2000 warriors. Francis
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Post by johnson1941 on Oct 28, 2023 1:36:03 GMT -6
Again descriptions are all over…. Pretty sure someone says ‘new growth’ with heavy undergrowth’.
Heres… DeRudio It is a bunch of timber which I have described as having a horseshoe shape. There was an opening, I believe the creek was a dry creek. The bottom was probably 25 yards wide and very thickly wooded. There was a very thick undergrowth and very large cottonwood trees on the stream. There was a clearing where I was. The bank was ten or twelve feet high, probably more, and there were but very few places that you could go down, only on the pony paths. In other places you could not get down because the banks were almost perpendicular. On the bottom there were paths going in the same direction as the creek, not much wood on it. The banks were about the same on both sides.
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Post by noggy on Oct 29, 2023 0:51:01 GMT -6
PS By Von Paulus you mean stick it out to the end.......? Coz it was kinda Hitler than ordered him to lol Francis Yep, throw away your men to no use in a hopeless situation. (Well, Paulus actually did surrender and spent time in a relatively comfortable POW camp, while 90k the men he and Hitler had tried but to sacrifice on the altar of nazi ideology starved and froze to death for the most part. A General worth something would have pulled out the second his flanks were attacked, and either faced a court martial or committed O.G Pr. Noggyussian suicide)
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Post by wild on Oct 29, 2023 18:21:54 GMT -6
Reno was lucky to even reach the timber. A disorganised unsupported withdrawl while in contact with the enemy, encumbered with horses is suicide. The position in the timber was easly outflanked and infiltrated. The timber fragmented the command breaking it into small isolated groups , It rendered command and controll neigh on impossible as witnessed by the number of men who did not hear the command to retreat. Only the arrival of Benteen saved the survivers from total annihilation. Regards
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Post by sirfrancis on Oct 29, 2023 23:42:47 GMT -6
PS By Von Paulus you mean stick it out to the end.......? Coz it was kinda Hitler than ordered him to lol Francis Yep, throw away your men to no use in a hopeless situation. (Well, Paulus actually did surrender and spent time in a relatively comfortable POW camp, while 90k the men he and Hitler had tried but to sacrifice on the altar of nazi ideology starved and froze to death for the most part. A General worth something would have pulled out the second his flanks were attacked, and either faced a court martial or committed O.G Pr. Noggyussian suicide) Yeah what stuffed 6th Army was the prior successful airlift of German forces in the Demyansk Pocket in early '42. Hitler (advised by Goering that he could airlift) figured they could do it again........doh. But it was actually allied divisions that collapsed on those flanks Romanians or Hungarians I think? Plenty of Generals did defy Hitler's stand fast orders during the war and survived ok. Von Paulus was a girl thingy.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 30, 2023 2:40:38 GMT -6
Rommel for one, Hitler even made him a field marshal on the eve of El Alamein because field marshals never retreated, but he did because he didn't want to sacrifice his troops.
Francis, you are right, the flanks of stalingrad were held by Romanian and Hungarian forces, not sure if the Italians were there too. The Russians always targeted Hitlers satellite forces and this was quite a target, I bet they couldn't believe their luck.
Ian
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Post by sirfrancis on Oct 30, 2023 3:13:05 GMT -6
Rommel for one, Hitler even made him a field marshal on the eve of El Alamein because field marshals never retreated, but he did because he didn't want to sacrifice his troops. Francis, you are right, the flanks of stalingrad were held by Romanian and Hungarian forces, not sure if the Italians were there too. The Russians always targeted Hitlers satellite forces and this was quite a target, I bet they couldn't believe their luck. Ian Hey Ian, Actually Von Paulus was promoted to Field Marshal to pressure him not to surrender as none had prior. But there's always a first...the prize goes to Von Paulus! Rommel not so sure, I think he was promoted for actually pushing the Brits & Aussies & Kiwis & Springboks & Indians & anyone else? back into Egypt. Or.....was it after he took Tobruk? Francis
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Post by noggy on Oct 30, 2023 7:36:25 GMT -6
Yes, correct: Romanian and Hungarian forces, but also Italians. I believe the 8th Army was the main Italian unit. Italian casualties were on par with the other two nations, so they all played (payed) their part.
And Yes, Rommel was promoted days after Tobruk fell.
Noggy
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