Custer’s sidearm

[sirfrancis]

Hey guys, back in around early 1990s I made a small diorama of Last Stand. I had a cowboy figure holding 2 pistols, and painted him like Custer. But after seeing paintings of last stand some had 2 pistols and some only 1. So I rang the Custer museum, whatever it was back in 1993. They told me he only had 1 pistol on the day. So I cut off one of the pistols. Now I’m looking into Custer stuff again, I keep coming across reports that he had 2 RIC pistols…. So can anybody clarify this for me please? I may need to return poor ok Custer his missing revolver!
Francis

[johnson1941]

fishgame.com/2021/03/the-guns-of-little-big-horn/

Most people believe Custer carried a 7 1/2-inch .45 Colt Single Action Army, like you see in the movies. Not true. He carried a pair of nickel plated, .455 caliber, British Webley Bulldog revolvers.

The one on display had ivory grips, which looked to me like walrus ivory rather than elephant. Elephant ivory becomes yellow with age and use, but the grip on this gun was still white. The nickel was worn, but the gun was still in very good condition.

Lieutenant Colonel Custer, in addition to his two Webley revolvers, probably had with him his favorite Remington rolling block rifle in .50-70 caliber. He was so fond of this rifle that he had written to Remington extolling its virtues. It is unknown whether he used it in the battle, but it is probable.

The facts contained herein are not completely indisputable, but if I did not believe them to be true, I would not have included them. You study the subject and reach your own conclusions, but first find a copy Wendell Grangaard’s book, Documenting the Weapons Used at the Little Big Horn, by Mariah Press. In it you can read of Black Elk, Kills Two, Crow King, Rain in the Face, Gall, and others.

Good luck!






No mentions of pistols, but maybe this Peter Thompson narrative will help your depiction...

Custer was mounted on his sorrel horse and being a very hot day he was in his shirt sleeves; his buckskin pants were tucked into his boots; his buckskin shirt fastened to the rear of his saddle; and a broad brimmed, cream colored hat on his head, the brim of which was turned up on the right side and fastened by a small hook and eye to its crown. This gave him opportunity to sight his rifle while riding. His rifle lay horizontally in front of him; when riding he leaned slightly forward. This was the appearance of Custer on the day that he entered his last battle, and just one-half before the fight commenced between him and the Sioux.

[noggy]

Oct 21, 2023 6:47:19 GMT -6 sirfrancis said:

Hey guys, back in around early 1990s I made a small diorama of Last Stand. I had a cowboy figure holding 2 pistols, and painted him like Custer. But after seeing paintings of last stand some had 2 pistols and some only 1. So I rang the Custer museum, whatever it was back in 1993. They told me he only had 1 pistol on the day. So I cut off one of the pistols. Now I’m looking into Custer stuff again, I keep coming across reports that he had 2 RIC pistols…. So can anybody clarify this for me please? I may need to return poor ok Custer his missing revolver!
Francis

I think he owned two pistols for sure, but what he carried on that day is another matter. I see there is some discussion about this online...but why not stick to realism and just use the one gun either way? The dual-wielding of sidearms is really not that accurate either way.

All the best,
Noggy

[sirfrancis]

Oct 21, 2023 8:23:37 GMT -6 noggy said:

Oct 21, 2023 6:47:19 GMT -6 sirfrancis said:

Hey guys, back in around early 1990s I made a small diorama of Last Stand. I had a cowboy figure holding 2 pistols, and painted him like Custer. But after seeing paintings of last stand some had 2 pistols and some only 1. So I rang the Custer museum, whatever it was back in 1993. They told me he only had 1 pistol on the day. So I cut off one of the pistols. Now I’m looking into Custer stuff again, I keep coming across reports that he had 2 RIC pistols…. So can anybody clarify this for me please? I may need to return poor ok Custer his missing revolver!
Francis

I think he owned two pistols for sure, but what he carried on that day is another matter. I see there is some discussion about this online...but why not stick to realism and just use the one gun either way? The dual-wielding of sidearms is really not that accurate either way.

All the best,
Noggy

Hey Noggy,
Yes so he owned several makes of pistol, however a photo of his cabinet shows only a single RIC blued with walnut grips, before the battle. I know it doesn’t match Lt Godfrey’s statement of 2 ivory handled nickel plated jobs. The RIC was apparently the only gun missing from his cabinet after the battle. Anyway you are correct, even if I had 2 pistols, I would use them one at a time with my shooting hand. Rather than flailing around with one in each hand.
Francis

[sirfrancis]

Oct 21, 2023 7:07:47 GMT -6 johnson1941 said:

fishgame.com/2021/03/the-guns-of-little-big-horn/

Most people believe Custer carried a 7 1/2-inch .45 Colt Single Action Army, like you see in the movies. Not true. He carried a pair of nickel plated, .455 caliber, British Webley Bulldog revolvers.

The one on display had ivory grips, which looked to me like walrus ivory rather than elephant. Elephant ivory becomes yellow with age and use, but the grip on this gun was still white. The nickel was worn, but the gun was still in very good condition.

Lieutenant Colonel Custer, in addition to his two Webley revolvers, probably had with him his favorite Remington rolling block rifle in .50-70 caliber. He was so fond of this rifle that he had written to Remington extolling its virtues. It is unknown whether he used it in the battle, but it is probable.

The facts contained herein are not completely indisputable, but if I did not believe them to be true, I would not have included them. You study the subject and reach your own conclusions, but first find a copy Wendell Grangaard’s book, Documenting the Weapons Used at the Little Big Horn, by Mariah Press. In it you can read of Black Elk, Kills Two, Crow King, Rain in the Face, Gall, and others.

Good luck!



View Attachment


No mentions of pistols, but maybe this Peter Thompson narrative will help your depiction...

Custer was mounted on his sorrel horse and being a very hot day he was in his shirt sleeves; his buckskin pants were tucked into his boots; his buckskin shirt fastened to the rear of his saddle; and a broad brimmed, cream colored hat on his head, the brim of which was turned up on the right side and fastened by a small hook and eye to its crown. This gave him opportunity to sight his rifle while riding. His rifle lay horizontally in front of him; when riding he leaned slightly forward. This was the appearance of Custer on the day that he entered his last battle, and just one-half before the fight commenced between him and the Sioux.

Hi, the Thompson description is great, I was pretty close, I got the info from the museum back in 1993, his hat I had as a light grey, I’ll have to check the diorama again re the turned up side.

I just read a good account from guns & ammo aug 31 2015 by Gary James. He used expertise from Glen Swanson. He leans towards a single RIC revolver. Also I believe they packed light for this expedition. I wouldn’t want to lug along an extra pistol, maybe in my saddle bag. But less weight, faster horse, more stamina, it all adds up.

Francis

[sirfrancis]

Yes I gave GAC a hat with turned up side as well! 

When I pulled it out of cupboard this afternoon, the flag broke. So I glued it back.....but upside down!!! ..... Did anyone notice? Lol

[noggy]

Oct 21, 2023 16:08:47 GMT -6 sirfrancis said:

Hey Noggy,
Yes so he owned several makes of pistol, however a photo of his cabinet shows only a single RIC blued with walnut grips, before the battle. I know it doesn’t match Lt Godfrey’s statement of 2 ivory handled nickel plated jobs. The RIC was apparently the only gun missing from his cabinet after the battle. Anyway you are correct, even if I had 2 pistols, I would use them one at a time with my shooting hand. Rather than flailing around with one in each hand.
Francis

Are you going for looks or realism, by the way? Your attention to detail makes me think the latter is certainly a part of it

If you want to stick to a realistic portrayal of the LSH fight, I think maybe you could argue he never used a pistol (if he was alive to do some shooting at all, and wasn't knocked out way early). There are many different depictions of the fight, naturally since the warriors who told about it took part in or saw different stages of it. But it seems clear that the troopers where killed mostly from some distance, not overrun by waves of NAs like in the more stupid movies. Custer carried a rolling block rifle, and I believe it is said that several casings of this weapon was found around him, so chances are he used it, but ofc someone could have picked it up too. It does either way make more sense to use that than a sidearm which would have a very short effective range 

But aesthetic wise, using a pistol looks "cooler", no doubt

All the best,
Noggy

 

[sirfrancis]

From memory I was inspired by artworks and especially the Tele-series 'Son of the Morning Star.' One of my favourite movies/series ever. Shame it's not in high definition. The copy I have is low res. I can't find anything better.  I wanted the diorama to look as realistic as possible - however obviously limited to a small base I couldn't include hostiles in a long range fight. So it is what it is. I did try to get the look of the soldiers and Indians correct. Dead horses, a mix of mounted Indians and on foot. I remember making the tiny arrows...btw this is 1/72 scale. I recall being disappointed I couldn't get the grass right...I wanted it taller and more straw coloured. The ground is more sloped than it looks in photo. I also remember from the movie how Tom Custer was using a lever Winchester. In the movie they had Custer with a single pistol at the end when he was on horseback - also when he fell and resumed firing with a single revolver. Of course a pistol would be last resort but it does look good and for movie purposes doesn't obscure the facial expressions etc. Always wondered why the main star in a knights movie often had an open face helmet....to keep his face in the camera! They're getting paid to act not hide! lol.

[Yan Taylor]

Nice Diorama Francis, when you mentioned about long grass, you can actually buy that stuff easily now, amazing what you can buy these days.

Ian

[sirfrancis]

Oct 22, 2023 13:34:30 GMT -6 Yan Taylor said:

Nice Diorama Francis, when you mentioned about long grass, you can actually buy that stuff easily now, amazing what you can buy these days.

Ian

Hey Ian,

Yeah thanks mate, I can't recall if at the time I could have sourced the taller grass, or I was just being a tight arse and didn't want to spend more money lol.

Bad luck with the rugby a close match indeed. We have a Southern hemi derby final.

Francis

[Yan Taylor]

Hi Francis, last time I was in a model shop I had a glance at things like grass, flock and forna, and the prices were really steep.

I thought England played it too safe to be honest, we have a good back line who never saw the ball, the forwards kept it tight and we relied on Farrells kicking game.

There are rumours that Farrell may change codes and go to rugby league, his dad was a great RL player snd his home town club "Wigan" are fave to get him.
Apparently his nothern accent is not appreciated by the southern snobs.

Ian

[johnson1941]

Very cool!

One of the indians supposedly who may have killed Custer talked about a fight over his pistol.

The indian with the drawings and all the coups...White Bull? Shoot cant remember.

"In this scene, White Bull wrestles with a soldier, who almost overpowers him. But White Bull was able to kill the soldier and take his weapons and ammunition. The ground around White Bull and the soldier is shown trampled by the Indians and soldiers during the course of the battle."


Definitely get that Remington in there!

[sirfrancis]

I was having a look at Son of the Morning Star and they definitely gave Custer a double action Webley RIC looking revolver. You can see the shorter barrel, smooth cylinder, lacking ejector tube. The other soldiers clearly have the Colt Single Action Army 7.5in like Reno has below. Also they depict Custer wearing only a single holster & sidearm on righthand side. I'm assuming they did some research or Connelly who wrote the book its based on did. 

One thing intrigued, his hat in the movie is turned up on left side. Yet he is right handed and if it was turned up to provide better vision I would think the right side should be turned up?...like the dude on my diorama! Ha.