logan
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Post by logan on Apr 7, 2023 17:21:31 GMT -6
This officer I find myself keeping coming back to, due to his attempt through his own actions, to ride towards where Custer was fighting, motivating the others the follow, until they had to retreat due to approaching warriors. It is quite sad to learn he was badly affected by the events of Little Bighorn and died not long afterwards quite a broken man Weir never attempted to ride toward Custer. He never went past Weir Points, which is a good forward observer location. His company went further north, but not Weir commanded. Regards AZ Ranger
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logan
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Post by logan on Apr 7, 2023 17:29:27 GMT -6
Weir rode towards the direction Custer was assumed to be, how do you presume that wasn’t the case, was he riding towards nowhere for no reason ?
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logan
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Post by logan on Apr 7, 2023 17:30:55 GMT -6
My apologies as I don’t know how to quote previous posts
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logan
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Post by logan on Apr 7, 2023 17:40:02 GMT -6
noggy,
Two points, I didn’t go on the defensive, nor is it because someone disagreed with me, I expected the latter, but first had to get a feel for the forum plus to actually prepare myself to disagree with those who disagreed with me, without being considered a novice...I’ve got replies, but may not be liked or accepted by long-term members.
I mean this amiably, as I’ve always said over the years, posts on forums can be read three different ways.
I intend to reply to both yourself and AZ Ranger when able to, as still working on other projects
Regards
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logan
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Post by logan on Apr 8, 2023 8:05:30 GMT -6
Although LBH isn’t my main interest, I use it continually as a comparison. In my humble opinion, Weir attempted to go to Custer’s aid not just through loyalty and duty, but there was something else, whether it be his prior knowledge of animosity in the relationships between Custer, Benteen or Reno which concerned him in a battlefield scenario, or he had heard/observed Reno/Benteen about their views on the situation and Custer’s fate, that he felt absolutely compelled to help Custer even at the risk of court martial. In the aftermath, I feel that this knowledge was the information he wanted to share with Elizabeth, as beyond his traumatic experience at LBH, something was eating away at him that he couldn’t disclose officially, which was making him ill, therefore, towards the end of his life, he wished to make what is known as a dying declaration, not written down on paper that can be conveniently lost, but verbally in front of Elizabeth and other witnesses, as his health had deteriorated so much, death being likely. Weir went only so far in Reno Creek, and Benteen caught up with him easily. Weir went as far as Weir Peak, and Benteen caught up with him easily. Moving to a forward observation location is something that should have been done, and Weir would be justified. Edgerly moved out with the company on his own and never reached MTC. If anything, that movement screwed things up by drawing attention without having a force to counter the Indians coming toward them.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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logan
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Post by logan on Apr 8, 2023 8:14:25 GMT -6
Using their men to draw off some of the warriors attacking Custer was their duty, either to lead the warriors away or into a line of fire, it was the only tactic left to them to try and prevent the annihilation of Custer’s Command that was isolated. Why just observe and not do ? They were participants not passive spectators, to watch a defeat take place without doing anything would’ve been unthinkable...unless you consider self-preservation worth the cost of a large section of your force along with your senior commander abandoned to their fate in front of your eyes
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logan
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Post by logan on Apr 8, 2023 8:19:29 GMT -6
It could be argued that Reno and Benteen disobeyed their orders, and that Weir was trying to obey the original orders, before the attack on the camp. Reno fled, Benteen turned back and left Custer without two wings of an enveloping movement. As Weir couldn’t surround the whole camp with his small force, the only option he had was to support Custer, or at least draw off some of the warriors attacking him. If Weir had instead done what Reno and Benteen did, if they had been the ones going out to aid Custer and Weir stayed put refusing to support Custer, he’d have been tried for disobeying orders, misconduct in front of the enemy, and quite likely cowardice, for not heading out to rescue his senior commander. A case of damned if he did, damned if he didn’t What orders? Bring them to battle? If anything, Reno brought too many Indians to battle. Come on and bring packs took place, and there is no stopping place in the order. We don't even know if he was to go to Reno or which side of the river. Come on without specification usually means to the commander or the writer of the note. Did Custer expect to be across the river and on the same side as the Big Village? We know for fact that Custer's five companies were fixed and destroyed in place without being on defense. There is no mutual support with overlapping fields of fire.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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logan
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Post by logan on Apr 8, 2023 8:29:38 GMT -6
Why judge Custer’s companies deployment, mutual support, fields of fire and destruction when he was fully engaged, as it is only a deflection away from Reno’s panic and rout with zero organised retreat. Then of course Benteen, who turned back under zero pressure from any large force of warriors. The Bring Packs order is dragged out on every occasion, as somehow being the cause of all the confusion, a written order, but any additional verbal orders aren’t written down, so lost to history
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logan
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Post by logan on Apr 8, 2023 8:35:08 GMT -6
Unfortunately, the points you make are the ones that literally go in circles without conclusions. Nobody appears to look ‘outside the box’ for historical precedents, where an isolated force most likely engaged against overwhelming numbers, is attempted to be reached by nearby ‘allied’ forces, the latter sustaining many casualties in the process, compelled by duty to rescue that part of their force that if remaining unsupported will likely be annihilated. You mean like Major Elliot? There never was a mission to save Custer. There is no military precedence including Custer not going to Major Elliot. No soldier would think Custer, with 5 companies, could not care for themselves.Reno and Benteen sitting on their hands inactive, unwilling to commit their forces, which observed by the warriors, the latter were aware they could strengthen their numbers opposing Custer whilst the former were pondering their own position, not the necessity to maintain pressure on the village, Reno and Benteen could be ‘dealt with’ after Custer had been wiped out. Reno's command had soldiers coming to the rallying place. The horses were blown, riding up the bluff. It would take time for them to recover. I rode up from Reno's crossing to the bluff and at a walk, and it was taxing on my horse. Try riding it under fire and as fast as your horse can move. It was a disgrace, think there is a quote by a trooper in Reno’s battalion who said something like - ‘if we hadn’t been led by a coward, we’d all have been killed’ - however, not being my main interest this source may not be fact. If Custer had remained a regimental commander then the 12 companies would have moved in concert. Instead Custer fed the 7th Cavalry to the Indians a few companies at a time.The ‘Reno didn’t know’ and ‘Benteen didn’t know’ any set plan or where Custer was is the biggest red herring in the whole scenario, they were military men not naive recruits, it was actually a case of ‘Custer didn’t know’ instead, that both Reno and Benteen had gave up on following his orders, therefore giving up on Custer, joined forces and whined about being let down by him, the very man who was fighting for his life not too far away with their fellow troopers, likely looking for reinforcements to appear in the ‘nick of time’ like any good cavalry film. When you make up the orders it makes it easy to say they didn't follow them.I’m not a Custer defender, but being interested in military history for several decades, I can identify in LBH the betrayal of a commander and the men under his immediate command, by officers who blatantly left the former to face overwhelming numbers alone, the warriors in full knowledge that Reno and Benteen would not be joining the fight, which most likely inspired confidence in the warriors that the cavalry could be defeated piecemeal, lacking unity with the force abandoned to its fate blaming the commander who was still trying to complete the mission, not knowing the others had given up not only on the mission but on him too. I can't accept your ability to use fictitious orders to form an opinion. It really is the saddest example of two officers holding back vital assistance and letting many of their men perish nearby without trying to help immediately, no matter the cost Can you share with us where the mission as ordered was changed to the mission of saving Custer? Please share the military protocol for that.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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logan
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Post by logan on Apr 8, 2023 8:49:07 GMT -6
Historical precedents need to be sought outside the study of a static subject, to get a true comparison, not keeping referring to Maj. Elliott, as it is within the same Indian campaigns.
Reno’s Command stopped not at a planned rallying point, but due to exhaustion, unable to go any further, It wasn’t a chosen location, it’s just where they ended up, not a strategic command decision.
If Custer had kept the 12 companies together can only be used in hindsight, so a null and void ‘what if’.
Just because orders aren’t written down as evidence, doesn’t mean they weren’t given verbally in a fluid situation .
Supporting Custer wasn’t a new mission, it was part of the whole, in the same way Benteen supported Reno. Why support one but not the other, how do you define the difference, is there a military protocol for that, beyond loyalty and duty ?
Not all orders are written, not all that is expected of commanders in a combat situation engaging an enemy is written in a manual.
I’m sure my responses are disliked, but as I feel I have to respond, which I didn’t want to so early, they are my opinions.
Regards
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 10, 2023 7:56:10 GMT -6
Weir rode towards the direction Custer was assumed to be, how do you presume that wasn’t the case, was he riding towards nowhere for no reason? One of the things we did in the military is had forward observation points. If Reno hadn't sent anyone to Weir then someone should do it. Weir did not take his company. He stayed on Weir which was an excellent forward observation location. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 10, 2023 8:01:15 GMT -6
Using their men to draw off some of the warriors attacking Custer was their duty, either to lead the warriors away or into a line of fire, it was the only tactic left to them to try and prevent the annihilation of Custer’s Command that was isolated. Why just observe and not do ? They were participants not passive spectators, to watch a defeat take place without doing anything would’ve been unthinkable...unless you consider self-preservation worth the cost of a large section of your force along with your senior commander abandoned to their fate in front of your eyes Their duty is the mission. Saving Custer was never the mission. You can find that discussion with Clair, a West Point graduate, and a cavalry member. What would make you think that five companies of cavalry could not defend themselves if they went on defense?
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 10, 2023 8:16:05 GMT -6
Why judge Custer's companies deployment, mutual support, fields of fire and destruction when he was fully engaged, as it is only a deflection away from Reno's panic and rout with zero organised retreat. Then of course Benteen, who turned back under zero pressure from any large force of warriors. The Bring Packs order is dragged out on every occasion, as somehow being the cause of all the confusion, a written order, but any additional verbal orders aren't written down, so lost to history In my career, we do debriefings and look at what worked and what didn't. We then use that to improve decision-making. In investigations, we know from experience and protocol what should occur. In the military, we use primary, alternate, contingency, and emergency in planning. Sometimes it may only be in your head, and Custer was great at it. So if you understand this, if Custer chose to go on defense, the battlescape would look different. Instead, we see the last part of PACE, which is emergency. Custer did not pick the final locations. The Indians chose them. He had to react in the emergency and fight to the end. Benteen did exactly what Custer ordered, and the only indecision was whether Gibson was looking into the correct valley. Benteen would have done better without the note. The maximum speed of the ammunition mules was eight mph, and the rest of the pack train was slower. So do you think Custer wanted Benteen to move at any time, no faster than eight mph? Regard AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 10, 2023 8:29:48 GMT -6
Historical precedents need to be sought outside the study of a static subject, to get a true comparison, not keeping referring to Maj. Elliott, as it is within the same Indian campaigns. Reno’s Command stopped not at a planned rallying point, but due to exhaustion, unable to go any further, It wasn’t a chosen location, it’s just where they ended up, not a strategic command decision. You are wrong. Reno pointed to a place on the bluffs and they went there. The horses could not have been worn out or they would not have made it up to the bluffs. Have you ever ridden across the river at the retreat crossing and up to the bluffs? That is a hard ride. I have only done it twice with different horses. I formed the opinion from my experience that horses would be blown and in need of recovery on the bluffs.If Custer had kept the 12 companies together can only be used in hindsight, so a null and void ‘what if’. Please Col Bender or Montrose to see that it would primary action and that Custer chose an alternate plain. Montrose states the decision point in Reno Creek is where Custer went wrong. His decisions after that were OK. Just because orders aren’t written down as evidence, doesn’t mean they weren’t given verbally in a fluid situation . That seems standard in combat whats the point?Supporting Custer wasn’t a new mission, it was part of the whole, in the same way Benteen supported Reno. Why support one but not the other, how do you define the difference, is there a military protocol for that, beyond loyalty and duty ? I don't think you understand missions. Reno was second in command in the regiment on that day. Benteen's battalion mission had ended and once he contacted Reno he was under his command.Not all orders are written, not all that is expected of commanders in a combat situation engaging an enemy is written in a manual. As Clair stated in years past. Officers are expected to make the best choice. Montrose modified it to make the best available choice. I’m sure my responses are disliked, but as I feel I have to respond, which I didn’t want to so early, they are my opinions. I think we are here to share opinions. If we learn from others we can also make better-informed opinions.Regards
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 10, 2023 8:41:02 GMT -6
Logan
You will see over time that the Indians were the better fighters on this day. They outnumbered the cavalry. The contact was during daylight hours, and numerous Indians were on the east side of the river. Custer was attacked by returning hunting parties at two locations. They were not large enough to defeat him but could drive him north toward the Cheyenne. Souix came across the river and joined from the west and south.
Custer was still on offense when the fighting started. He ran into the Cheyenne and halted offense north of Last Stand Hill. He went into retrograde rather than going on defense. Now you know investigators look at the ground and bodies to form opinions. Custer wanted to go north to attack the other side of the Big Village, so the plans from both sides were conducive to Custer's offensive movement. By the time he chose not to continue, the Indians had him surrounded.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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