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Post by greathunter on Jan 26, 2022 20:31:56 GMT -6
Can anyone explain why in the hell any top commander worth his salt Going into a deal like the june 1876 Campaign, would not be able to think about what if? What of this was to happen? What if that was to happen? My point is that i find it absolutely incredible that in my mind measures were not taken just in case the fighting got down and dirty? Was it the soldiers responsibility to think ahead for themselves? Because i tend to think if im going into something like this and im a top commander, i try to account for EVERY POSSIBILITY my boys may encounter.. Not doing such would seem to me to be counterproductive to what your trying to accomplish period..
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Post by wild on Feb 2, 2022 18:41:39 GMT -6
The military is a system with drills leadership weaponry and training to deal with whatever "whatifery" might arise. Custer ignored one of those drills to wit you do not divide your forces beyond supporting distance and he got badly bitten , cheers
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Post by greathunter on Feb 2, 2022 19:35:02 GMT -6
He skipped drills for this sort of thing? Incredible....
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Post by noggy on Feb 3, 2022 2:34:31 GMT -6
He skipped drills for this sort of thing? Incredible.... The troopers were all over poor horsemen and marksmen. If I recall correctly, one of the things Reno did when leading the Regiment when GAC was away (75, I believe) was to encrease the number of rounds each soldier was to use during training. GAC reversed that again, I think. But what do you mean by "hand-to-hand combat"? Judo, krav maga, wrestling moves, kickboxing techniques etc? I doubt there were training systems for this, at least not for cavalry. Soldiers were expected to shoot the enemy, and if close enough have the good sense to hit them with rifle butts, stab them with blades, or punch them in the face. I'm not sure about this, but it would sound more like something the infantry who were supposed to stand in line and shoot each other could have more use for. Perhaps they knew some basic bayonet techniques, but that also sounds more relevant for Infantry. Sgt Ryan once said somethig I can't quote perfecrtly but he believed some troopers were uncomfortable with or even scared to use sabres while mounted. Noggy
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 3, 2022 12:49:19 GMT -6
It will help if you read Sgt Ryan regarding these particular soldiers. They refused to saber training or didn't participate as if their life depended on it. When I trained, I knew I was going to Vietnam, and I wanted to be good with all the tools available. They needed to ride with an independent seat and fully use their hands. They required lots of firing to be proficient with their weapon system. Some privates state they had never ridden that fast, nor had they ever fired their revolver from horseback. Against a Big Village willing to fight, just showing up is not enough.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by greathunter on Feb 3, 2022 14:18:43 GMT -6
What AZ ranger said is what inwas trying to get at..the indians knew how to fight with knives, war clubs And hatchets/ tomahawks.. I concur with AZ ranger on this subject..did custer not ever think his line could be overrun? Did it not enter his mind?? He was brash, arrogant, and one smug S.O.B..i dont mind a leader with confidence, but i wouldnt serve with one who wasnt with reality..
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Post by noggy on Feb 3, 2022 14:38:26 GMT -6
What AZ ranger said is what inwas trying to get at..the indians knew how to fight with knives, war clubs And hatchets/ tomahawks.. I concur with AZ ranger on this subject..did custer not ever think his line could be overrun? Did it not enter his mind?? He was brash, arrogant, and one smug S.O.B..i dont mind a leader with confidence, but i wouldnt serve with one who wasnt with reality.. But this was not unique for Custer or the 7th; Colonists and then the US army had for hundreds of years been in big trouble if it came to close combat, since...well, that was how the Indians had fought for thousands of years. Noggy
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Post by greathunter on Feb 3, 2022 19:47:29 GMT -6
Noggy i understand what your saying But dont you think it prudent to teach such stuff so a soldier is better prepared?
Or is it just a case of Custer didn't give a damn about his men As long as good ol custer got his one shining moment, and the hell with how many died for HIS GLORY ?
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Post by greathunter on Feb 3, 2022 19:56:02 GMT -6
Not too mention they didn't take thier sabres for whatever idiotic reason it may have been ...i wonder if any of them had the good sense to bring a knife?
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Post by noggy on Feb 4, 2022 2:45:36 GMT -6
Noggy i understand what your saying But dont you think it prudent to teach such stuff so a soldier is better prepared? Or is it just a case of Custer didn't give a damn about his men As long as good ol custer got his one shining moment, and the hell with how many died for HIS GLORY ? Do you think the rest of the US Army were trained in hand-to-hand combat by their regimental commanders, and that GAC was just the sloppy exception? MacKenzie's 4th Cavalvry was perhaps the finest "Indian Fighting" force in the US Army. Did they use sabers and go around punching warriors in their faces? The 7th should never have been in a position where they would have needed such skills (which no modern, Western Army as far as I know had training systems for either). If led properly as a united fighting force. GAC could have had the men drilled in knife and tomahawk fighting for years, it wouldn't help when they're strung out in the open being bombarded with arrows and rifle fire and run over by mounted warriors. Who by the way outnumber them pretty hefty. Ask the trooper who nearly got White Bull; he sort of did well for himself until the other warriors showed up. The best you could hope for was killing a warrior or two more than you did. GAC's mistake was not letting his regiment utilize it's advantages; surprise and the immense fire power of a firm, regimental attack. In light of this, when he had served his troops piece by piece to the warriors, it feels more like looking for things to pin on him when talking about him not drilling the troops in hand to hand combat. Especially when they already were lacking in rudimental skills as riders and marksmen. Why not ask the same about Crook, MacKenzie etc? Because they didn't make the mistakes GAC did as became legends due to being killed in spectacular fashion. If I drive a bus with my pupils into a lake, the main issue people should be having with me is not that I did not teach them to swim beforehand. We don't need to construct things to criticize him for, there are enough legit things to take from. N
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 4, 2022 8:40:48 GMT -6
Not too mention they didn't take thier sabres for whatever idiotic reason it may have been ...i wonder if any of them had the good sense to bring a knife? The sabers were more for "show" than anything else. In addition they would have been cumbersome on the march. Whether they would have made any difference at the LBH is unknown. The cavalry was mostly an "awe and shock" command. Dozens if not hundreds of mounted cavalry would have been very frightening attacking a village. Unfortunately none of the 7th got close enough to make a difference.
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Post by crzhrs on Feb 4, 2022 8:45:46 GMT -6
After the Civil War the government greatly reduced the size of the military due to the cost and the country was just exhausted and shocked by the massive loss of life.
Budgets were cut in outfitting and training. Most of the recruits were immigrants or men looking for work rather than any altruistic or patriotic reasons. Besides the philosophy of the military was the Indian was an inferior opponent and couldn't possibly stand up the USA military regardless of it's reduced size and equipment.
In the end it wasn't so much the military defeated the Indians as indicated by the number of victories won by Indians, it was the Indians were overwhelmed by the White Race.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 4, 2022 9:17:21 GMT -6
By European standards, a regiment like the seventh would be classed as light cavalry, unarmoured and armed with a sabre, pistol and carbine these regiments would be mainly used for scouting and also pursuit of a beaten enemy.
I don’t know why they just didn’t make them dragoons, and arm them with a rifle and bayonet, at least they could fight on foot a little better, although it wouldn’t make much difference because the companies were too dispersed to form interlocking fields of fire.
Ian
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