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Post by Diane Merkel on Jun 15, 2021 15:27:00 GMT -6
Hero,
I'm sure the battle was one of the most important events of the scouts' lives, so they probably remembered it fairly well. I'm amazed by how much my husband remembers of his time in Vietnam, and his memories are corroborated by his fellow soldiers at reunions we attend.
I don't doubt the scouts had field glasses, but I'm not aware of any scouts being with Weir when he moved forward.
Diane
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Post by herosrest on Jun 16, 2021 2:41:18 GMT -6
Hi Diane,
I spent quite some time with Libby's Ree Narrative and realised that scouts moved downriver from Reno Hill, before Weir's advance. They were returning as Company D moved out after their CO, having tried to rescue the scouts who took cover on the east bank of the river during the retreat but were driven back. It's an episode very little known and must have been done on their own hook. I never wrote it up properly and discussion always devolves into Weir and no one believing the scouts were active after the pony stealing and retreat. The point is Wylie sighting Cross at time in space. From the Ree Narratives, Cross was part of a group of at least 10 (ten) scouts..... coming back along the bluffs after the rescue attempt. This is an interpretation of some difficult information and of course the scouts were badly demeaned as skedaddling from the fighting, until Libby put the record straigt.
Regards.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 16, 2021 5:35:57 GMT -6
One of the relevant 'lost' texts, from 'The Arikara Narrative' - linked online to read at Archive.org Continuation by Red Star, Boy Chief, and Strikes Two. We had no arrangement or order on the field. Strikes Two mentioned the plan first and pointed out the Sioux horses. It did not occur to them that it would make any difference what they did first as at this time there was only some light skirmishing going on. Custer’s plan was for them to seize the Dakota horses across the river. They crossed the river at a point where there was no regular ford and rode after the horses of the Da¬ kotas. There was very little fighting on the line at this time and the village was just stirring. As they headed the horses into a group. One Feather and Pta-a-te had a bunch nearer the ford and these horses were retaken by the Dakotas who had crossed the river lower down, below the timber where Young Hawk and his party were to hide. They crossed the ridge just ahead of the Dakotas and got away with the horses. Little Sioux and Bull-in-the-Water helped to get the horses over the ridge. Here were all the remaining scouts who did not cross the river. The horses were headed into a ravine east of the ridge and the scouts changed horses. There were twenty-eight of these Dakota horses here. As the scouts turned back to fight and rode up on the ridge, they saw that the line was broken and that the soldiers were coming up the hill. The Dakotas were across the river already and coming right after the soldiers. Down the river they could see the smoke of much firing around the grove where Young Hawk and his party were hiding. At the Dakota camp they noticed that the riders were headed down stream. Red Star saw Varnum, his orderly was with him, wounded in the ankle. Boy Chief rode down the hill toward the river, right among the Dakotas, to look for his brother. Red Bear, but he was driven back.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jun 17, 2021 7:56:17 GMT -6
Hero,
I was addressing the question of whether there were scouts with Weir when he went forward. I have no argument with you regarding the role of the scouts.
Diane
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Post by montrose on Jun 18, 2021 7:56:00 GMT -6
The use of scouts became a serious problem before Reno crossed at Ford A. The coward Gerard abandoned his place of duty and did not transmit orders to the auxiliaries, as I have discussed in great detail before. The officer in charge of the auxiliaries also abandoned his duties for the duration of the battle.
While the US military ignored the Indian allies, the allies themselves put up a superb effort. They tried to help, far exceeding Custer's orders that they were basically free to leave once they found the enemy camp.
Also: the whole seize enemy horse herd is a red herring. They seized a hundred horses, and 70 were promptly recaptured. The enemy had more than 10,000 horses, 30 were irrelevant. The order to seize horses was designed for 30 or so. It was a reward for good service, just a bonus above and beyond their formal pay. LTC Custer and the 7th had no concept of using the Indian auxiliaries to fight the battle. A bad decision, one of hundreds made by GAC.
The allies could have, and should have, been better used. But that process should have taken place Sep 75-May 76. Starting to sort out how to use allies on the day of battle is too little, too late.
So how do you properly use Indian allies? Google Crook and Mackenzie. In fact google most of the officer corps of this Army. The majority of officers had a better understanding of the nature of Indian warfare than GAC and his collection of incompetent lackeys. GAC screwed up not just on 25 Jun, but on the years before, in failing to train his force.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 19, 2021 16:57:48 GMT -6
Hi,
Cpl. Wylie identified Cross returning and passing him as Company D advanced after Weir. Wylie carried a guidon and as best I can figure it out, advanced with Edgerley. They followed Weir and so Weir passed the scouts also. As to whether scouts went along with Weir, unknown. Sorry to confuse.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 19, 2021 17:06:00 GMT -6
In fact google most of the officer corps of this Army. The majority of officers had a better understanding of the nature of Indian warfare than GAC and his collection of incompetent lackeys. GAC screwed up not just on 25 Jun, but on the years before, in failing to train his force. Do you advocate abandoning idiots?
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Post by shan on Jun 20, 2021 7:40:02 GMT -6
Montrose,
couldn't agree with you more regarding the lack of making more use of the Indian scouts. Given that the Sioux seemed far more keen to focus their attention on the Ree scouts over on the left of the line, choosing to go after them rather than the troopers during the early part of the fight, one wonders it might have been a good idea to use them as a diversionary tactic to temporally draw the enemies attention away from the main army whilst they got themselves in a better position.
Now I'm no expert on the battle of the Rosebud, but from what I've read, it would seem that without the courage and tenacity of his Indian allies ~ the Crows and Shoshones, he would have had a much harder time of it, and would have probably taken a lot more casualties.
Shan
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Post by noggy on Jun 20, 2021 9:25:26 GMT -6
Now I'm no expert on the battle of the Rosebud, but from what I've read, it would seem that without the courage and tenacity of his Indian allies ~ the Crows and Shoshones, he would have had a much harder time of it, and would have probably taken a lot more casualties. From what I've read, the scouts alone are owed the credit here, as they acted on their own while the soldiers (Crook) don't seem to have been quite on the ball when Crazy Horse and the warriors came. Noggy
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Post by noggy on Jun 20, 2021 9:41:38 GMT -6
In fact google most of the officer corps of this Army. The majority of officers had a better understanding of the nature of Indian warfare than GAC and his collection of incompetent lackeys. GAC screwed up not just on 25 Jun, but on the years before, in failing to train his force. Do you advocate abandoning idiots? In my experience, idiots often abandon people they should not abandon Noggy
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Post by herosrest on Jun 21, 2021 12:46:23 GMT -6
Do you advocate abandoning idiots? In my experience, idiots often abandon people they should not abandon Noggy Surely they tend towards obedience?
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Post by noggy on Jun 22, 2021 1:21:27 GMT -6
In my experience, idiots often abandon people they should not abandon Noggy Surely they tend towards obedience? That would be great in my of work, actually. But too often they just go ahead doing whatever they want without care, sigh. Noggy
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Post by herosrest on Jun 22, 2021 4:04:44 GMT -6
Obedience is a rather strange concept within the broad ranges of respect. It was typified by McCauley at Bastogne! Enjoy a decent read. Winkler has done quite some work with this battle.
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Post by hunkpatila on Jun 27, 2021 9:59:33 GMT -6
Montrose, couldn't agree with you more regarding the lack of making more use of the Indian scouts. Given that the Sioux seemed far more keen to focus their attention on the Ree scouts over on the left of the line, choosing to go after them rather than the troopers during the early part of the fight, one wonders it might have been a good idea to use them as a diversionary tactic to temporally draw the enemies attention away from the main army whilst they got themselves in a better position. Now I'm no expert on the battle of the Rosebud, but from what I've read, it would seem that without the courage and tenacity of his Indian allies ~ the Crows and Shoshones, he would have had a much harder time of it, and would have probably taken a lot more casualties. Shan Gentlemen, just some data for consideration. Custer had around 30 Ree and others as scouts, plus the 6 Crows. Not all the Ree contingent got into the valley fight, though 2 of the Crows did. The other 4 stayed with Custer. The Lakota went after the Rees who were stealing horses and got back the majority. Do you really think that the village warriors would have concentrated on the Rees for any other reason? What diversionary tactic other than going after the horses did you have in mind Shan? There is ample evidence to show that there was no intention for the scouts to join in the fighting. How much difference would 30 additional men have made other than to add to the casualties? Crook on the other hand had over 250 Crow and Shoshone auxiliaries, not scouts, who were expected to join in the fighting. As it turned out, they kept out of the fighting until Captain Henry was wounded and about to be captured, which gave then the chance to execute one of their traditional battle tactics, rescuing a wounded comrade. To make comparisons between the Indian allies of Custer and Crook is misleading, only another excuse to vilify George Custer. Custer's scouts did their job - they found the village for him. The fighting was left to the soldiers. Sincerely, "Hunk" Papa
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Post by benteen on Jun 27, 2021 12:40:52 GMT -6
Hi Hunk,
I could be wrong but I read the post by Col Montrose a little differently. I dont think he was reffering to use them more in combat, as you say what difference would 30 more combatants make,but rather he didnt use them as well as he could to do their function which was scouting.
As an example, he didnt know excatly the size and strength of the village before he commited Reno to an attack/assault. That is the function of scouting or recon.He should have sent them to get that info as best they could.
Also and more important, he should have sent them and not almost 6 companies and his supplies with Benteen to the left. He could have positioned Benteen to where he could intercept anything that the scouts found.
Again, just an opinion.
Be Well Dan
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