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Post by benteen on Apr 2, 2021 7:49:00 GMT -6
Logan,
I thought you would like this. During the Korean war there was a horse attached to a Marine unit that was pinned down by enemy fire and was running out of ammo. Someone took the horse to the supply depot to get more ammo a couple of times. After that she went on her own and got the ammo and brought it to them through the gunfire. They named her "Reckless" and she is responsible for saving them. She received the rank of United States Marine Staff Sergeant and (to my knowledge) is the only animal to Official receive rank in the US Military history. Look her up on your computer I think you will enjoy her story.
Be Well Dan
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logan
Full Member
Posts: 202
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Post by logan on Apr 2, 2021 8:13:54 GMT -6
Thanks for that Dan, will do.
Likewise, you should read about the horse called Bill The Bastard !
Fantastic horse and great story too
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Post by noggy on Apr 2, 2021 9:11:51 GMT -6
Logan, I thought you would like this. During the Korean war there was a horse attached to a Marine unit that was pinned down by enemy fire and was running out of ammo. Someone took the horse to the supply depot to get more ammo a couple of times. After that she went on her own and got the ammo and brought it to them through the gunfire. They named her "Reckless" and she is responsible for saving them. She received the rank of United States Marine Staff Sergeant and (to my knowledge) is the only animal to Official receive rank in the US Military history. Look her up on your computer I think you will enjoy her story. Be Well Dan One must not forget good old Stubby: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_StubbyMy favorite animal-soldier is by far Wojtek: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojtek_(bear) The pictures of him having a beer and stuff will never stop making me smile. All the best, Noggy
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Post by Bruce Robert on Apr 19, 2021 15:25:03 GMT -6
Custer had a plan? What plan? He was in recon mode. His choices show this. Nothing wrong with this, as he still was unclear as to specific location(s) and enemy numbers. Benteen didn't fail in his mission, nor did Reno. Please, not again with the "LibbyLies" that refuse to die. Reno followed his orders to chase down the NA's moving away from Lone Tepee Village. He dismounted and formed a skirmish line because that was standard procedure when confronted by a large enemy force. Had he continued into the first of three villages, he would have ended as did Custer.
Custer was a very good officer. His ACW career shows that. He was following orders dictated by "We the People" as expected of military officers. But on that day, he made a nuimber of mistakes. Some were understandable; some will probably forever remain a mystery as to why and what he was thinking.
Let us not forget, it is not so much how did Custer lose, but how did his enemy win. That day, they were better at maneuver, leadership, aggressivness, and of course, they had vastly more warriors to bring to the table.
On this day, if any officer failed, it was Custer. It does not condemn him; nor does it do him honor.
Not because I say so, read Michno - Fox - Fred ?
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Post by noggy on Apr 20, 2021 2:33:54 GMT -6
Custer was a very good officer. His ACW career shows that. I agree with your post, but the quoted part is one I feel is a little more complex than being either a good or a "bad" officer. GAC did great in the ACW. Leading a Division (or was it a Brigade?) in a conventional war. Here he was as you said, a good officer. I've even seen historians argue he was the Union's best cavalry officer. I'm no ACW expert, but it says something about his qualities. Leading a Regiment is another thing, way more hands-on approach is needed. And fighting Indians who use guerilla tactics for the most part is something else than fighting Confederate Cavalry units. Imo, GAC didn't do a very good job as a regimental commander. This doesn't mean he was a bad officer in general; he had shown he could be a good officer under the right circumstances. Frontier service leading a Regiment didn't play to his strong sides. All the best, Noggy
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Post by shan on Jun 12, 2021 9:57:19 GMT -6
Hi, I posted this question up on the other board, but am posting it here in the hope that some of you may have a few ideas.
Can I just ask a couple of general questions here, just so as I can get my head around some of the timing issues. Sorry if this prompts a yawn on the part of those who have been through all this time and time again, but I'm afraid the mind has started to resemble a giant sieve these day.
I think that there is a fair amount of agreement that the duration of Reno's down fight in the valley breaks down to just over an hour. Maybe 20 minutes on the skirmish line, something similar in the woods, and maybe a bit more to cross the river and get to the top of the bluffs, lets say 70 minutes in total. Once there, he meets Benteen and time wise, things become a bit more confusing.
But I want to pause here and try to work out where Custer is during those 70 minutes or so. We know that several people saw him, or at least saw part of his command passing across the bluffs, at, or around the time that the skirmish line was being established. Custer himself may have already moved on by then, but I would guess that that he was probably being kept informed of what Reno was up to. So, part of his command is still on the bluffs at this point, now, whether they took Cedar coulee or one of the coulees to the north of Weir ~ that would be my preference, we know that he then paused and sent Martin back from somewhere around Medicine Tail coulee, plus, given that a number of Indians talk about seeing his men up and around Luce ridge, we also know that part of his command must have been making their way up there.
I guessing here, but Reno's command had probably just moved back into the trees at this point. Martin says he saw them fighting as he passed by, although he didn't state where they were when he saw them, but I think we can take it that they definitely weren't running at the time, as I think he would have mentioned it if they were. By the time Custer's troops are firmly established up on Luce, and he himself has probably made a move towards the ford, I'm guessing that Reno's men have left the woods and are on the run. Now here's what I want to know. How long was it after Benteen arrived, that they heard those volleys, and more importantly, how long was it before Weir set off for what later to become known as Weir Point? It seems to me that the mystery of what happened to Custer's command hinges on what Weir says he saw or didn't see. The reports seem rather garbled to me, as does the timing of when he saw what he says he saw.
For instance, he talks about Indians riding around shooting at objects on the ground in the vicinity of Calhoun hill, or was it Findley ridge, which, if true, seems to indicate that the command had already been pushed right back and are being overwhelmed. If however, those observations were made some time after he arrived, then this begs the question, what was he seeing earlier? Like I say, I find it somewhat confusing time wise, and there's something else. There were a great many men up and around Weir point for quite a long time, and yet we get very little comment from them saying what they saw.. Yes, there would have been a hell of a lot of dust and gun smoke about, but there must have been periods, no matter how short, when it cleared. Plus, there's the matter of gunfire, how heavy was it, indeed was there any at all?
One more thing, and it pertains to the above questions. I have no idea how many of the officers carried field glasses back then, I would have imagined that there were quite a few, but then maybe I'm wrong, maybe it was thought an unnecessary hindrance when out in the field, still, I would have thought there would have been a few, and if so, then they must have seen something.
Shan
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Post by brahms4 on Jun 13, 2021 7:13:09 GMT -6
I hope you get some responses to your questions.I would like to see some of the theories myself.I would mention,in regards to field glasses,that I recall reading that Custer borrowed Lt.deRudio`s field glasses (at the Crow`s Nest?)but never returned them.If Custer didn`t have field glasses of his own it would make me think that they were very scarce.Can`t remember reading any testimony that mentions anybody using field glasses.Of course the dead don`t talk,maybe someone who died with Custer had some.
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Post by noggy on Jun 14, 2021 2:20:18 GMT -6
I'm not sure myself, I am just a "noob", and hope this might rovoke the old guard into action But regarding field glasses; One should have thought field glasses were deemed important equipment for cavalry oerating on the plains. But was it standraized, or just up to the individual officer to get a pair (haha...)? If I recall correctlyg, DeRudio had a Austrian or German made pair of glasses. But Benteen owned, at least at some point, a pair of Lemaire military binoculars, which are French. The officers could carry individual weapons, instead of standard weapons, so maybe it was the same with field glasses? As in, they could use standrad issue field glasses but could carry their own. I know Godfrey mentioned using field glasses but I have no idea if it was a part of the "package". All the best, Noggy
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Post by shan on Jun 14, 2021 4:42:50 GMT -6
brahms4@Noggy
thanks both, yes that's partly why I posted the questions, I don't know why, but we seem to have run out of steam on this board, maybe it has to do with Covid, who knows?
Anyway, yes I did get some response on the other board, so lets deal with the binocular question first. From what I've read, I think we can take it that there were a number of men who had binoculars with them that day, however, having said that, I think the famous story of Custer asking to borrow DeRudio's glasses tells us something beyond the fact that Custer didn't have a pair himself, and that is that none of the other men around him: Cooke, his brother Tom or any of the other officers had a pair between them. I suppose there's just a chance that someone did, but that they weren't very good, but then I guess that's something we'll never know.
But if we go back to the question of Weir, and whether he owned a pair or not. If I remember rightly, theres a story that he saw figures over on Calhoun who he took to be members of Custer's command, but then his sergeant, who was sat beside him ~ I forget his name ~ passed him a pair of glasses saying something along the lines of "I think you better take a look through these sir, for I think you'll find that they're Indians." Sadly, we still have no idea when this observation was made, but my guess is that it was sooner than later.
As I said in my piece, there were a great many men either on, or around Weir Point at one time or another, and yet when it comes to accounts of what they saw, the silence is almost deafening, surely there was more than just the one pair of binoculars up there? Glasses that just as in the case of Weir, would have been passed from one to another?
The other thing I wondered about on the other board was whether the Indians were aware of all the activity up on Weir Point. In other words, were they aware before they saw them and began moving towards them? Personally I think yes, and what's more, I think many of them saw them fairly early on. So why then, didn't they move against them earlier? Well, I think there were two reasons, firstly they had a a battle to fight with Custer's men, men who were spread over a considerable area, battle that looked as if it was going well, and so naturally enough they wanted to get that over and done with. And secondly, and it seems that there are those who disagree with this, yes they'd seen them and kept a watch on them from time to time, but it soon became clear to them that these new soldiers weren't going to interfere. In which case, they could finish the battle, hunt down those they thought might have escaped, secure all the loose horses, attend to their own dead and wounded, do some looting and celebrating, all the while keeping an eye over their shoulder, and then, once they'd drawn a breathe, set off to deal with this new threat.
Hmm, it's nice to be able to tidy up history on the page like this isn't it? If only history was more like it.
Shan
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Post by Colt45 on Jun 14, 2021 10:13:43 GMT -6
Was there more than Derudio's field glasses with the 7th? Probably, but if so, not very many. Since, as was pointed out earlier, the officers who were around Custer apparently had none, we can assume they were somewhat rare within the regiment, at least in Custer's 5 companies.
When Weir reached the point, he observed the last phase of the Custer fight, as the Indians were finishing off the wounded on the ground. He most likely saw the last actions on Calhoun hill, as seeing farther than that is difficult on a clear day with the naked eye, and there was plenty of smoke and dust to obscure the view toward LSH. As I recall, and I could be wrong, Weir initially had only about a platoon (8-10 men) with him on first arrival at the point, the rest of his company was trailing behind. His stay on the point was probably limited to around 10 minutes, as the Indians began moving toward him, forcing them to return to the defensive position.
Most likely, the Reno/Benteen companies were strung out in a line, moving at different speeds toward Weir point. They all did not reach the point. That means only a small number of men had a chance to take a good look at the action on the Custer field. The majority probably never even reached the point before being sent back. We know at least 1 company made it to the vicinity, as that company remained behind to cover the retreat back to their defensive position. This probably accounts for why there are so few documented accounts of what was seen at Weir point.
I would suggest checking out Fred's "Strategy of Defeat" for times and for how long troops were in the Weir point area, as he as done a lot of work on the timing of events.
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Post by noggy on Jun 14, 2021 11:00:53 GMT -6
"The early morning was bright, as we ascended to the top of the highest point whence the whole field came into view, with the sun to our backs. "What are those?" exclaimed several as they looked at what appeared to be white boulders. Nervously I took the field glasses and glanced at the objects; then almost dropped them, and laconically said, "The Dead!" Col. Weir who was near sitting on his horse, exclaimed, "Oh, how white they look! How white!"" Also found this article by Koster; www.historynet.com/the-arikaras-custers-13th-company.htm who mentions Reynolds having field glasses. Still not able to find out if it was standard equipment for the cavalry, but did find an interesting piece from a collectors site, claiming field glasses/binoculars used by the Army were French produced, as it was only around WW1 the US themselves started producing own optical aids. Benteen carried French field glasses at LBH. Noggy
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jun 14, 2021 11:23:50 GMT -6
My husband's dissertation was the first full-length biography of Thomas Weir. Here is some of what he wrote about Weir Point and the field glasses: A little over a mile from their defensive position, Weir went on top of the 3,450 foot bluff which today bears his name and, from that vantage point, he could see that large numbers of Indians were moving in Edgerly's direction so he signaled for him to move to his right. . . . Weir dismounted his company and formed them along the crest of the ridge. He saw a number of horsemen on a distant ridge who seemed to be carrying guidons. He thought it was Custer, and was preparing to mount the company when Sergeant James Flanagan brought him some field glasses and suggested that the horsemen were Indians, not soldiers. A closer examination through the glasses revealed that he was right and Weir chose to remain where he was. . . . Edgerly later recalled that he and the company spent about two hours on Weir Point but Weir only spent about an hour with him before going back to find Reno. There is, of course, much more to the story, but I believe those quotes answer the questions posed. His sources were Ken Hammer's Custer in '76 (pages 129-130), Bob Ege's Curse Not His Curls (p. 91), and Godfrey's Custer's Last Battle (p. 374). I saw comments about how this board has slowed. That's very true, and I will do what I can to liven things up a bit. Please don't give up on it! Diane
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Post by shan on Jun 15, 2021 5:11:21 GMT -6
Hello Diane, glad to see that you are well and getting involved.
Diane, I have a vague memory of meeting you once here in Britain when you and your husband came and gave a talk to the British Custer society ~~ ooh ~~ must be close to 20 years ago? However, now that I come to write it down, I'm beginning to wonder if it might be a false memory, for my mind is much like that of all those old veterans, who when asked to give their account of what they did and saw that day, did their best to rake up what they saw, little imagining that we'd all be sat here centuries later, sitting like spiders, waiting to pounce on their words as if they held some divine truth.
Now, to that little bit of information you posted on Weir. There are two points I like to question, the first being that you seems to imply that Edgerly was up there shortly before Weir, and that Weir, on seeing him exposed, called him back because he could see large numbers of Indians moving towards him. Without having to plough through all my books, I thought that Weir left some time before everyone else, but maybe Edgerly was one of those who accompanied him. Do you know if this is true.
Your other point seems to indicate that Weir must have made that observation of Indians up on Calhoun at some point during the hour that he spent up there, which narrows it down, for Edgerly talks of having spent around two hours out there before leaving, whereas Weir had left after about an hour. That means that if he saw what he reports he saw, then it must have happened fairly early on, I say that, because you wouldn't make that observation and then just turn round and leave, no, natural curiosity would make you want to hang on and see what happened next. Which is a long winded way of saying that one of the main parts of the Custer part of the battle was over before he left, which if true, knocks almost an hour off its duration.
Shan
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Post by herosrest on Jun 15, 2021 5:29:58 GMT -6
Glad you are on the mend, Ma'am! Charley Reynolds had field glasses. A source is the Ree scouts - The Arikara narrative of the campaign against the hostile Dakotas, June, 1876 by Orin Grant Libby.An important 'lost text' is ' Red Star's Story of His Special Scout Work ahead of the Army. p86-93. I quote: 'Page 91 - Charley Reynolds pointed where Custer was to look, and they looked for some time and then Gerard joined them. Gerard called back to the scouts: "Custer thinks it is no Sioux camp." Custer thought that Charley Reynolds had merely seen the white buttes of the ridge that concealed the lone tepee. Charley Reynolds then pointed again, explaining Custer's mistake, then after another look Custer nodded that he had seen the signs of a camp. Next Charley Reynolds pulled out his field glasses and Custer looked through them at the Dakota camp and nodded his head again. Crooked Horn told Gerard to ask Custer how he would have felt if he had found two dead Dakotas at the hill. The scouts had seen six Dakota Indians after Red Star and Bull had left them. Two of them had gone over the ridge down the dry coulee and four of them had ridden into the timber at the foot of the hill. They thought the two Dakotas were planning to ambush the messengers and they wished to kill them first. They did not do so because they were afraid Custer might not like it. Custer replied that it would have been all right, he would have been pleased to have found two dead Dakotas. Then the scouts sat down and one of the Crow scouts. Big Belly, got up and asked Custer through the Crow interpreter what he thought of the Dakota camp he had seen. Custer said: ''This camp has not seen our army, none of their scouts have seen us." Big Belly replied: "You say we have not been seen. These Sioux we have seen at the foot of the hill, two going one way, and four the other, are good scouts, they have seen the smoke of our camp." Custer said, speaking angrily: "I say again we have not been seen. That camp has not seen us, I am going ahead to carry out what I think. I want to wait until it is dark and then we will march, we will place our army around the Sioux camp." Big Belly replied : ''That plan is bad, it should not be carried out." Custer said: "I have said what I propose to do, I want to wait until it is dark and then go ahead with my plan." It is what is and from scouts and the interview took place in 1912, 36 years post battle. These were the scouts generally given to have taken a 'Powder' to the Powder River Depot but who in reality fought bravely and retired when Reno Hill was surrounded and they were unable to join Reno on the hill. From memory without scratching about for source, all the scouts carried eye glasses which was usually telescopic lenses and for sure, the Crow Curley carried one.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jun 15, 2021 15:14:48 GMT -6
Shan, I wasn't the one you met in Britain, so I guess your memory is playing tricks on you. My husband isn't home now -- he's my Little Bighorn encyclopedia -- but I'll try to answer your questions based upon what he wrote. 1. Weir and his orderly left first. Edgerly saw them and had the company mount their horses, and they followed shortly afterward in the same direction. Weir went to the place Custer was last seen, and Edgerly led the company to a shallow ravine. Weir then went to the bluff named for him and saw that Indians were moving toward Edgerly. He signaled for Edgerly to move, and the company joined Weir on the bluff. To answer your question specifically, Weir and his orderly rode out first and Edgerly followed shortly after. 2. Weir left after about an hour to find Reno, leaving the rest of the troops straining to see what was happening two miles away on Custer Hill." It was later surmised that they were seeing the final phase of Custer's fight." There was probably so much dust and movement on Custer Hill that Weir and company could not tell what was happening from their location two miles away. Diane
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