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Post by tubman13 on Feb 7, 2018 14:43:37 GMT -6
Robb,
Digress is all you ever do.
Regards, Tom
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Post by pequod on Feb 7, 2018 17:07:40 GMT -6
tubman...13,
Yes, you're correct, but this site is nothing more than a digression from accurate history...
Regards to you,
Robb
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Post by dave on Feb 7, 2018 20:15:57 GMT -6
AZ Ranger, ...couldn't agree more...they are not of practical relevance, but then again, most comments here are not of practical relevance. Moreover, the montrose mantra is of no practical relevance, but the members (here) keep following him over the cliff, and that's no concern of mine. However, I digress... Regards, Robb pequod What "montrose mantra" are we lemmings following over the cliff? Share with us your ideas and thoughts beyond snippets. You are obviously concerned with what you called "accurate history" which you believe we are missing so enlighten us. I am wondering if you are just playing us or are you serious? Regards Dave
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Post by pequod on Feb 7, 2018 22:14:51 GMT -6
Dave,
Serious, me..? This site is high drama followed by comic relief. I'm here for the comic relief. Dave, you're more astute than most contributors here, and for that, I'm not surprised, because you do pay attention...and understand the...subtiety...
Regards,
Robb
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Post by dave on Feb 7, 2018 22:29:28 GMT -6
pequod It seems that the irony of the narrative, a tapestry of dutiful actions undertaken for the sake of an unattainable ideal, is shattered by the dark death of the protagonist beyond any comprehension.
At times you make comments like mine above which is of course nonsensical in content and sense. Wish you would share real ideas and opinions not the doggerel I have posted. Regards Dave
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Post by noggy on Feb 8, 2018 6:00:56 GMT -6
I feel the topic of this thread is great, it`s development not so much.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 8, 2018 7:16:30 GMT -6
tubman...13, Yes, you're correct, but this site is nothing more than a digression from accurate history... Regards to you, Robb You are factually incorrect when you state "this site". There are facts here and certainly lots of opinions. A factual representation of someone's opinion does not mean the person holding the opinion bases that opinion solely upon facts. I think Tom is on to something. Riffed may be an investigative lead. Regards Steve
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 8, 2018 7:41:14 GMT -6
www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/NHC/small_wars/small_wars.htmA very serious disaster befel a column of United States troops during the Bed Indian wars on the Little Big Horn, which illustrates the danger of tactical separation. The column consisted of 12 troops of cavalry, with a train of pack animals. On getting touch with the Indians it was formed into four parties, one of five troops under Colonel Custer commanding the column, and two of three troops each, one of them under Major Reno; the fourth of one troop farmed the baggage guard. The force was moving down the valley of a stream. When it was reported that the enemy's settlement was only two miles off, Major Reno's party was sent to the front to move rapidly against the enemy, it being understood that Colonel Custer would support. The two other parties had got altogether separated from this main portion of the force. Major Reno found the Indians in great force and being unsupported he was, after a hot fight and heavy loss, compelled to take refuge on a bluff close by, which proved a satisfactory refuge. Fortunately he was joined here by the two parties which had gone astray, and with their assistance was enabled to hold his own against the determined attacks which the Indians kept up for many hours. Colonel Custer's force appears to have moved to the right of the valley--fixing was heard on that side. Apparently it got back eventually to near the river some distance lower down than where Major Reno's force had taken up 'position--this at least was conjectured from the tracks. But what occurred exactly is not known, for the force was annihilated and nothing but the bodies of men and horses served to tell the tale of the disaster. It appears --179-- to have been the case that the five troops fell in with an overwhelming force of Indians, and that these afterwards oame to attack Major Reno's party. Fortunately that officer secured a good position, and had partially entrenched his men while there was yet time. Difficulty of manœuvring detached forces effectively. When several detached columns are intended to co-operate in a combined attack, there is always the danger of an error with regard to time or distance marring the effect. This occurred as already described in the case of the flank attack on Ali Musjid, and also during the first advance on Wedza's stronghold as mentioned on p. 176, although in neither case did harm come of it. The manœuvring of such divided forces by the commander of the whole, is always difficult to carry out successfully once they are started upon the enterprise. The great object to keep in view is to assign to each a task within its powers, taking the nature of the terrain, the amount of opposition to be encountered and so forth into account. It is always better to err on the safe side--to allow too much time rather than too little. To each column a proper impulse should, if possible, be given at the outset, then the less interference there is with their independence the better. Of course unforseen circumstances may arise which render a change of plan at the last moment imperative; but in the absence of such a contingency it must never be forgotten that the secret of success lies in trusting subordinates till they are found to be going wrong, that orders sent from a distance may be issued under a misapprehension of the exact circumstances at the moment, and that there is always great risk of their causing confusion.
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Post by pequod on Feb 8, 2018 12:19:48 GMT -6
Dave,
It's the doggerel you post that is the most entertaining here and one of the reasons I appreciate your contributions...otherwise, the opinions I fail to express will not be missed by anyone of the commentators here...
However, montrose, being the expert on all matters LBH, is the go-to guy, and that should satisfy the members...here...!
Regards,
Robb
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Post by noggy on May 22, 2020 13:53:04 GMT -6
-Bump-
In my shelf I found a Osprey book I at least can`t remember reading previously, "Apache Tactics 1830-86" by Robert Watt. It`s very interesting, and showcases a number of events with focus Apache tactics against US army, Mexican army and civilians. Much emphasis is placed on ambush tactics and the different sorts ambushes they would use in very effective ways; planned ambushes, decoys and deception, "killing" ambushes etc. The author manages pretty well in making parallels to modern insurgents, calling one ambush tactic as the "Apache roadside bomb". There is a lot of focus on how they used the terrain, which I like. Many good maps and photos. Also measures to fight the Apaches are given some place, but not all that much.
I haven`t read too many Osprey books, but this one is decent. I understand that shorter books/texts have their limitations and may not be of much use to experts, but even if I have read a fair amount of books about the Apache wars, the tactical case studies of specific skirmishes and such were really interesting.
All the best, Noggy
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Post by tubman13 on May 25, 2020 6:16:45 GMT -6
Noggy, other than Apache's little study covers the wars/battles of the Indian tribes of New Mexico and Arizona. An example is the overthrow of Spanish rule in New Mexico 335 years ago.
The Pueblo Indian uprising, during which they expelled the Spanish usurpers and tormentors from New Mexico. Modern Pueblo Indians call August 10 Independence Day. While the Spaniards returned and re-subjugated the Puebloans 12 years later, they were able to re-establish and keep their religion and culture, which have endured to this day. No other Native American uprising as successful as the Pueblo Revolt happened before or after.
As early as 1598, the Spanish received the formal submission of the Hopi villages to the King of Spain. Some tales of Spanish abuses have survived the long arc of time from the 16 th and 17 th centuries. Priests raped young girls. One priest even insisted runners bring him water from 50 miles away instead of using local spring water. Another priest beat a Hopi in front of the entire village when he caught him in what the priest called an act of idolatry.
Early settlers were often accepted, assisted, and even revered. Our Native Americans learned some tough early lessons. We certainly deserved the blowback we have received up to today.
Small war tactics were often the only options open to these people.
Regards, Tom
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Post by noggy on May 26, 2020 8:55:47 GMT -6
Noggy, other than Apache's little study covers the wars/battles of the Indian tribes of New Mexico and Arizona. An example is the overthrow of Spanish rule in New Mexico 335 years ago. Hi Tom! Quite. Or, the Comanches went around in at least NM and have gotten their share of "fame". But your point stands. I`ve been looking into the history of Indian "wars" in California lately, which I`d never paid any attention to and doubt many others have. Basically in large part a cruel, systematic genocide. Really sickening stuff, but apparently of little interest to people. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Genocide . I remember one historian wrote about how reading about fights against the flashy and mounted Sioux on the plains appealed more to people than the minimalist Apache, who fought from ambushes in the mountains. I guess that goes for many historical subjects. All the best, Geir
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Post by tubman13 on May 26, 2020 15:18:02 GMT -6
Warsaw Ghetto. The brave die hard.
Regards, Tom
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Post by shan on May 27, 2020 5:48:00 GMT -6
Noggy,
your quite right, we've all become accustomed to the idea that the Indian wars tended to revolve around the plains Indians and the Apaches. For the most part one can blame Hollywood for this, although to be be fair, more often than not they took their themes and information from the countless novels and comics that had been published previously.
Its very hard to shake these images, and I'm talking about The Sioux and the Cheyenne here, out of your head. I know that in my own painting I tend to focus on them to the exclusion of other tribes. However, there are number of artists who are now making paintings of the woodland Indians over to the east, Robert Griffith's being amongst them who is making marvellous portraits of some of the more better known ones.
And as to your reference to the smaller, forgotten tribes, I too have felt ashamed when reading about the treatment of the Californian Indians, it was absolutely appalling, but then I'm afraid they weren't glamorous enough for the film makers to want to make films about them, or indeed, us to be interested in them.
And Tubman, the piece you wrote about the Pueblo uprising came as news to me. I knew they had difficulties in their dealings with the Spanish, but I never realised the sheer scale of it, do you know where can I read a bit more more about it?
Shan
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Post by tubman13 on May 27, 2020 7:49:12 GMT -6
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