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Post by jdhoffman on Aug 4, 2016 5:56:35 GMT -6
I'm sure this will cause a heated discussion. The Indian accounts talk about how 4 Cheyenne youths met the troops at the crossing, a man in a buckskin coat on a sorrel horse started to cross with the man carrying the guidon they fired at him shooting him off his horse 2 soldiers jumped down and put the wounded man across a horse and fell back. It's a well known fact Custer wore a buckskin coat & rode a sorrel horse that was never found on the battlefield. The Cheyenne youths said he appeared to be the leader, the guidon carrier always rode next to the commanding officer. Look at the fact's, Custer always led his troops, why would they stop to pick up a wounded man in the middle of attacking the village unless it was Custer? Why fall back then, Custer wouldn't of stopped he would attack as planned. It was at this point confusion set in. The Indians say all 5 companies were at the river together. The surgeon fell on the way to the hill,one of the first to fall. The Dr. would of stayed with the commanding officer. The accounts say the soldiers were milling about confused. Custer fought through the Civil War he was a good officer he wouldn't of been confused or stopped by 4 warrior's. I think it was here the companies split the coulee is to deep to ride across until you reach the ridge,2 companies with the wounded Custer turned left while 3 turned right, they attempted to join at the ridge but it was too late,the overwhelming number of warriors simply stopped them. Custer was shot twice once above the heart once in the temple at close range the report said. Indians didn't waste bullets on wounded men they clubbed them to death. I think Tom Custer shot his brother at the end to prevent his torture.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 4, 2016 6:04:56 GMT -6
jdh,
Which ford? Some accounts, by living survivors, have said Custer had taken off that jacket and tied it to his saddle, earlier in the day. While agree that GAC may have been shot in the head at close range, have you ever heard about powder burns, by anyone?
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Aug 4, 2016 9:30:57 GMT -6
Which ford? Which guidon? Whose buckskin jacket? Where is the MOST PROBABLE location of four Cheyenne youths?
Which ford - Putting five companies down at Ford B and attempting a river crossing would be something like pouring a bucket of water into a Coke bottle. Ford C is the same only the Coke bottle becomes an eye dropper. The terrain at Ford D, on the other hand, is the only place where five companies can adequately deploy for a doctrinal river crossing during an attack.
Which guidon - There were by my count five company guidons, plus an unauthorized general officers divisional guidon. The guidon bearer stays with the commander at all times. That is his job to denote the location of the commander of that particular echelon of command.
Which buckskin jacket - I agree with Tom, in that there are too many accounts of Custer having taken his off to be ignored. It was a very hot day. The levels of trail dust must have been extraordinarily high. Under those conditions a light colored shirt, covered with dust may very well look like a buckskin jacket at some distance. In addition several people were reported to have worn buckskin from time to time during that campaign.
The Cheyenne Circle was in the northern portion of the village complex, above Ford B.
Show me one battle in all of recorded history where combat and confusion do not walk together hand in hand down the Primrose Lane of the narrative. . We do have a quaint habit in the U S Army of trying to recover our dead and wounded when it is possible.
Either of Custer's wounds would be immediately or near immediately fatal.
Doctor Lord was found near the top of Last Stand Hill and presumably one of the last to fall. Doctors in the U S Army are generally found at the place of most urgent need.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 4, 2016 10:11:08 GMT -6
Hi Hoffman, a lot of those stories have been tweeked over the years but still have some valid points, but things like "two crossed the river" so were did the other two come from to pick him up?
The only Company to which had (light) Sorrels was Company C, but most of the Indians claimed it was the grey horse soldiers which got close to the river.
The fording places at point B and D both share similar features, with high ground, a coulee which led to the river plus you guessed it a river to cross.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 4, 2016 10:33:04 GMT -6
Most Indians claimed Ian?
I think it would be much more accurate to say that most Indians that said anything pointed to Company E as being the ones they saw (the foxhole eye view). That in no way excludes all the rest from being there as well. It may, but there is no proof of that being a completely verified fact, especially so if there was vegetation in that area near the river, as one might expect there to be.
I am still trying to come to grips with the surgeon always being near the commanding officer, as well as there being no expectation of confusion, were Custer not wounded.
That story of Custer being wounded at a ford has been around since Paul was blinded on the Damascus Road. It does not pass the smell test.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 4, 2016 12:09:22 GMT -6
Ugh.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 4, 2016 12:12:45 GMT -6
I shall spend the rest of the afternoon in total despair Pequod, knowing that someone with crap for brains does not like what I post.
The difference between the Hoffman fellow and you Pequod is that he is trying to offer something of value, and you are bankrupt of value.
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Post by wild on Aug 4, 2016 17:39:48 GMT -6
Show me one battle in all of recorded history where combat and confusion do not walk together hand in hand down the Primrose Lane of the narrative.The LBH .
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Post by wild on Aug 5, 2016 0:43:55 GMT -6
Post by jdhoffman on 18 hours ago I'm sure this will cause a heated discussion. The Indian accounts talk about how 4 Cheyenne youths met the troops at the crossing, a man in a buckskin coat on a sorrel horse started to cross with the man carrying the guidon they fired at him shooting him off his horse 2 soldiers jumped down and put the wounded man across a horse and fell back It is a strong contender . At one fell swoop there is a leadership malfunction and it occurs at a most inopportune time . Also having no designated second in command did not help matters and the presence of brother Tom would also mess up priorities . The weakness in jdhoffman's arguement is that he bases it on a dubious witness account. He would have made a stronger case basing it on circumstantial evidence.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 5, 2016 3:24:11 GMT -6
tubman13, Ugh to you x...2. Pequod The first thing you have added to the discussion, you sir are the vacuous one, not QC. Maybe they were 400 math books.
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Post by wild on Aug 5, 2016 8:38:27 GMT -6
Further A dead or wounded Custer would explain why both wings failed to mount a credible defense. It also shows a fatal flaw in the "follow my leader" command and control system employed by Custer that day.
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 5, 2016 12:48:27 GMT -6
If everyone really wants to get silly about whether Custer was shot at the Ford then read "Where was Custer?" by Harry Combs. Combs states that Mitch Boyer who had a grudge against Custer because of Me-o-tzi and the way he treated her felt Custer was a "rat" and contacted Crow & Sioux Relatives to set a trap for Custer. Boyer was to fire a warning shot to alert the village of Custer's approach then would assassinate Custer and take his revenge on Custer!
No one know how Custer died and who fired the fatal shot to put him out of his misery . . . but it would be fairly resonable for Cheyenne Indians to recognize Custer after the battle to know who he was from his/their time on the reservation.
Then there is the testimony from many Cheyenne Indians regarding Tom Custer and his abuse of Cheyenne women. One can understand the retribution on TC by Cheyenne Indians. The only way TC was recognized was by tatoos on his arms.
There is so much more involved with the LBH than the obvious . . . don't overlook what Indians said . . . they are the only ones who were there at Custer's collapse!
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Post by benteen on Aug 5, 2016 15:28:47 GMT -6
If everyone really wants to get silly about whether Custer was shot at the Ford then read "Where was Custer?" by Harry Combs. Combs states that Mitch Boyer who had a grudge against Custer because of Me-o-tzi and the way he treated her felt Custer was a "rat" and contacted Crow & Sioux Relatives to set a trap for Custer. Boyer was to fire a warning shot to alert the village of Custer's approach then would assassinate Custer and take his revenge on Custer! Horse, In the book "66 Years in Custers Shadow" by Henry and Don Weibert, in the last chapter they suggest the same scenerio, that Mitch Boyer led Custer into a trap which was set up. When he(Mitch Boyer) fired into the Village that was the tip off. Be Well Dan
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Post by edavids on Aug 5, 2016 16:11:20 GMT -6
If everyone really wants to get silly about whether Custer was shot at the Ford then read "Where was Custer?" by Harry Combs. Combs states that Mitch Boyer who had a grudge against Custer because of Me-o-tzi and the way he treated her felt Custer was a "rat" and contacted Crow & Sioux Relatives to set a trap for Custer. Boyer was to fire a warning shot to alert the village of Custer's approach then would assassinate Custer and take his revenge on Custer! Horse, In the book "66 Years in Custers Shadow" by Henry and Don Weibert, in the last chapter they suggest the same scenerio, that Mitch Boyer led Custer into a trap which was set up. When he(Mitch Boyer) fired into the Village that was the tip off. Be Well Dan [ Interesting stuff but why would Bouyer stick around after outing Custer? Let's remember that he died near Deep Ravine, likely toward the end of the Custer fight. I do not recall if he was killed by Sioux or Cheyenne but no exit strategy? Right now I find this story incredulous. Best David
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 5, 2016 16:48:47 GMT -6
David,
Most accounts have 3 crow Scouts firing into the village on the ridge just below MTC, I don't think Boyer was there.
Regards, Tom
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