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Post by fred on Oct 26, 2015 6:50:40 GMT -6
That's incredible, I live in Lagrange right down the road from Pawling off Rte 55. I certainly do wish you luck. Hopefully we will run into each other one of these day's. If you travel north on the Taconic Parkway when you go over Rte 55 in Lagrange I'am 4 miles away. Dan, That is incredible; my brother-in-law lives in Lagrange, on Cole Road, just off of 82. My house in Pawling was at the top of West Dover Road, an old 1700s Quaker farmhouse I spent $350,000 on re-furbishing, then losing in a divorce!!! (My ex-wife was one of the world's leading experts on how to spend money!!!) I moved up to Pawling in 1983 and left in 1994, but I loved it there. I also owned a small cottage next to the Hunt Country Furniture compound in Webatuck. In our more halcyon days, I was a regular at the Old Drover's Inn, when Charlie Wilber was the maƮtre d'. My wife and I go up to the Millbrook Winery quite a bit and usually have lunch at Aurelia in Millbrook. Nice little place. Maybe one of these days we can get together; it would be a hoot. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Oct 26, 2015 6:52:21 GMT -6
Have not been on the Taconic since 1970... Tom, It is one of the most beautiful roads in the country, especially during foliage time. A beautiful drive. We're on it all the time. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by montrose on Oct 26, 2015 7:50:48 GMT -6
1. Training. Training was all On the Job Training. Units trained themselves, when they had time available. There were no tasks, conditions and standards on what training meant. This means what constituted a fully trained soldier or officer was determined at company level. This 'standard' varied by company, regiment, and post. This Army was Forrest Gump's box of chocolates. You did not know what you had until you took them into combat.
2. Individual marksmanship training did not exist. Marksmanship training consisted of firing at a sheet 4 feet high and fifty feet long. It was a concept suited for smoothbore muskets, not rifles. The development of individual targets and creating a known distance firing range were part of the post LBH reforms. True BRM training had to wait til Miles retired, since he was opposed to all training and any reforms, the true Colonel Blimp of the US Army.
I find it amazing that these posts did not build rifle ranges. In Afghanistan Special Forces operated in many small, remote bases, like the 1876 Army. Wherever possible we build ranges, even if only 25 meter ranges to confirm battle sight zeros.
3. Lack of training did not need lack of ability. LBH is the outlier. The US met its strategic and operational goals 1865-1898 with a very low quality Army. And there are units like the 4th Cavalry and 5th Infantry that clearly rise above the rest, and are more efficient and effective than the rest. The impact of the enormous turnover at soldier level is overlooked. Desertion rates were 25-33% a year. Add in death, medical disability and misconduct discharges. AT company level you can have 50% turnover each year. How the hell do you train a unit like that.
I served in the bad 1980s Army. During the reforms we started weeding out the bad apples, especially the drug users. In my diary from this period I recorded 33 chapter actions while I was a platoon leader. I chaptered 3 squad leaders. That Army couldn't beat a Boy Scout troop.
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Post by edavids on Oct 26, 2015 8:16:25 GMT -6
As far as formation used in the move "Zulu" I had alluded to. www.youtube.com/watch?v=raBNUUj1-fYAgain, can't speak to historical accuracy and I realize the NA's could fire from a distance unlike the Zulus. Fred & Dan, glad when old stomping grounds have been mentioned. I spent 3 fabulous summers on Lake George, 1976-78 and am very familiar with the Taconic State Pkwy which we used to get to my exes grandmother's home in North Adams MA. Did a lot of skirt chasing, sometimes successfully (on Lake George, not while with my ex ;-). Seriously though, what a phenomenal area. Did any of you ever make it over to the Dog Team restaurant in Vermont before it burned down? Now back to this thread.
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Post by dan25 on Oct 26, 2015 8:34:30 GMT -6
As far as formation used in the move "Zulu" I had alluded to. www.youtube.com/watch?v=raBNUUj1-fYAgain, can't speak to historical accuracy and I realize the NA's could fire from a distance unlike the Zulus. Fred & Dan, glad when old stomping grounds have been mentioned. I spent 3 fabulous summers on Lake George, 1976-78 and am very familiar with the Taconic State Pkwy which we used to get to my exes grandmother's home in North Adams MA. Did a lot of skirt chasing, sometimes successfully (on Lake George, not while with my ex ;-). Seriously though, what a phenomenal area. Did any of you ever make it over to the Dog Team restaurant in Vermont before it burned down? Now back to this thread. Sorry, this will be my last post not related to this thread. If anyone hasn't seen it you should check out the 2nd film, "Zulu Dawn" about the battle of "Isandlwana" it has small but quite interesting detail's about some things I believe the English Army did do. Such as placing firing stakes out at certain distance's so the soldiers could adjust their sight's as they enemy closed with them. I believe the film was from the early 2000's. The stars are Burt Lancaster, Peter O'Toole and Bob Hoskins, with well known bit actors. Regards dan25
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Post by edavids on Oct 26, 2015 8:46:32 GMT -6
As far as formation used in the move "Zulu" I had alluded to. www.youtube.com/watch?v=raBNUUj1-fYAgain, can't speak to historical accuracy and I realize the NA's could fire from a distance unlike the Zulus. Fred & Dan, glad when old stomping grounds have been mentioned. I spent 3 fabulous summers on Lake George, 1976-78 and am very familiar with the Taconic State Pkwy which we used to get to my exes grandmother's home in North Adams MA. Did a lot of skirt chasing, sometimes successfully (on Lake George, not while with my ex ;-). Seriously though, what a phenomenal area. Did any of you ever make it over to the Dog Team restaurant in Vermont before it burned down? Now back to this thread. Sorry, this will be my last post not related to this thread. If anyone hasn't seen it you should check out the 2nd film, "Zulu Dawn" about the battle of "Isandlwana" it has small but quite interesting detail's about some things I believe the English Army did do. Such as placing firing stakes out at certain distance's so the soldiers could adjust their sight's as they enemy closed with them. I believe the film was from the early 2000's. The stars are Burt Lancaster, Peter O'Toole and Bob Hoskins, with well known bit actors. Regards dan25 Watching it as we speak. Came out in 1979, 15 years after Zulu. With anywhere from 14-26,000 troops/warriors involved it kinda casts a shadow on LBH with its 2-4,000. Brave men all; worthy of our respect for their bravery in both battles.
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Post by magpie on Oct 26, 2015 14:24:58 GMT -6
Bravo an impressive show of British discipline and resolve under fire. Amazing restraint on the warriors in not throwing their javalins that they carried under fire to within 10 yards without letting them fly. All that crazyness aside The British movement certainly seems the kind of thing they are talking about but as someone on this tread mentioned you don't want to be in front of the muzzle blast. The sound itself is shocking even without considering the potential loss of hearing. Maybe why in the one manual they didn't pass. There are a lot of these manuals, so one poster has a 1855 Hardee and I found a 1860 Hardee and there is an 1874 and an 1876 Upton and even more Upton's and the Cook or Crook and the Poinsetts all probably making changes with changes in equipment and arms.
I was just around Albany NY somewhat North East of on a road ending in Mass. myself seeing a cousin's new house.
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Post by montrose on Oct 26, 2015 19:01:23 GMT -6
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Post by magpie on Oct 27, 2015 7:18:17 GMT -6
A world of difference, Military Science earning that title. To bad our political leaders don't have a manual. That's a lot of pages. The Hardee's and eary Upton's era seemed to express the idea that 90% was just showing up and making it to position in fine order as 90% of their manual was directed at just that and parade. I think there are more pages dedicated to the musical score than to actually fighting (skirmishing) and the final battle order (? placement of reserves, rally point and command)..
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phil
New Member
Posts: 25
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Post by phil on Nov 1, 2015 5:05:44 GMT -6
Phil, Thank you for your response. That's really incredible for you to be interested in LBH for so long. I am really glad for you that you now have the time to finally learn about it. I too found the Zulu War extremely interesting. As for Isandlwana versus LBH, I wonder who would win the STUPID of the year award, Custer or Chelmsford. It's incredible when a seasoned officer becomes so arrogant and vain they completely forget a golden rule, "Never Underestimate Your Opponent". Although Chelmsford did manage to get a much larger number of his men killed than Custer. If I remember correctly in the movie there was some soldiers at Rorkes Drift that mentioned something about the Welsh Soldiers As for me and LBH, I just recently became seriously interested. With so, so much history to investigate just in my so called own backyard, I fortunately live in an area of New York State where I can go in any direction from my home and within one hundred to two hundred miles there's battle sites from some war, be it King Philips War, Queen Ann's War, French and Indian War or the American Revolution. If you ever seen the movie "Last of the Mohegan's", Fort William Henry and the site where the massacre took place is only about 120 miles from me. Regards dan25 Hi Dan,
It's interesting when both LBH and Isandlwana are compared. Both battles featured regular troops defeated by a numerically superior supposedly technically inferior opponent. Zulu warriors did organise along more traditional military lines than NA's, forming into regiments and using pre-determined tactics to out flank their enemies.
I don't know enough about Custer the man to make a judgment with respect to arrogance. He did get five Company's of Cavalry wiped out so it's obvious mistakes were made. I need to read a good, well researched biography of GAC to give me a better understanding of his personality and experiences.
Best of luck with LBH study Dan. I've only really scratched the surface of BLBH. Even knowing how to proceed is difficult.
Regards Phil
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Post by dan25 on Nov 1, 2015 9:43:36 GMT -6
Phil, Good to hear from you again. Learning about LBH and trying to understand what Custer might have been thinking or attempting to do is a quite a challenge.
Just to let you know I posted some info on the "Take a Break" board, under the "Around the Camp Fire" thread. I think you might appreciate it, unless you already know those things.
That posting is for everyone. You might enjoy the pictures.
Regards dan25
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Post by dan25 on Nov 10, 2015 8:56:59 GMT -6
Fred, tubman13, edavids, magpie,
Regarding the previous posts about the area where I live. I apologize for not responding sooner to your response's. I am glad your familiar with the area. My boss, (the wife) gave me some time off for good behavior so I could get back on line for a while.
Regards dan25
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