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Terrain
Aug 17, 2015 7:24:28 GMT -6
Post by fred on Aug 17, 2015 7:24:28 GMT -6
Joe, Fred, and everyone else who reads these boards, The tactics of this fight are very simple to understand. I can explain the tactics both sides used to any high school graduate, in 30-45 minutes. I want to avoid any belief or concept that you must have served in the military, or certain branches or grades to understand LBH. This was a single regiment fight with small arms. No air, arty, synch matrixes, nada. Too many folks get intimidated by other folks resumes, who cares? Fred went to some washed up Catholic School, and I doubt he wore those plaid skirts that gave me issues when I was 13. There are several boards on this battle. Some of them get into your credentials, meaning whether your background qualifies you to have an opinion or not. That is not relevant here. All we ask is support your argument in a reasonable manner, following the Western philosophy of empiricism. This means the search for truth. Use logic, not emotion. The facts, assumptions and constraints of this battle are pretty easy to understand. Look at the battle. What do you think happened? What data was available to decision makers at a specific place, at a specific point in time? Would you do the same or different? Why? If you need help with terminology or concepts, just ask. We are happy to help you make an argument. That doesn't mean we will not shred you afterwards. Samuel Clemens wrote that the reason old people can not sleep at night is because of all the vitriol and anger they have stored up over the years. This board provides a strong support to that hypothesis. You will get offended here, just part of participating in the internet. Take a risk, offer a theory, see what happens. This applies to all the lurkers on this board, who look but never post. Say something. Just once. Respectfully, Will One of the best posts ever put up here. And no, I never wore a plaid skirt!!! Best wishes, Fred.
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Terrain
Aug 17, 2015 8:01:38 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on Aug 17, 2015 8:01:38 GMT -6
All who would have seen your legs, probably thank the lord. Thin ties, blazers, and Brylcreem was probably enough!
Regards, Tom
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JoeG
New Member
Posts: 32
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Post by JoeG on Aug 17, 2015 10:41:22 GMT -6
Mr Wagner, you are clearly a gentleman as well as a true scholar of this subject. I don't have a military background and am obviously removed from the scene living in the UK. However I spent a sizeable portion of this summer studying your book, I found it utterly compelling, easily the best treatise on the battle that I own. Your book made me decide that I should visit the battlefield next year (also thanks to my understanding wife).
I have uploaded a couple of pictures of Orchard House, I'm having trouble resizing them to fit the 1MB rule, at 53 years old I may have to get my teenage kids to help me here!
I have many questions to ask, hopefully on the correct threads. As we're on Terrain can I ask whether it is still possible to get an unobstructed view of the valley from the crows Nest?, or indeed whether the Crows Nest still exists as an accessible landmark.
Best Wishes
Joe Attachments:
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Terrain
Aug 17, 2015 12:03:59 GMT -6
Post by fred on Aug 17, 2015 12:03:59 GMT -6
Joe, Important things first... it is "Fred." I require "Mr. Wagner" from children, those I interview for university, and those I dislike. Otherwise, it is Fred. Second... I only hope my book deserved your praise. I thank you for every single kind word you wrote about it. My sincerest thanks!!! Third... you did quite well with the photos. They are really nice. Thank you for posting them. And last... you need to make arrangements ahead of time if you are going to want to see things other than the National Park itself. The park is divided in two sections: the Custer field and the Reno-Benteen defense area. There is an access road through the park gate, the parking lot of the visitors center, and then it winds its way through the park itself, onto private land, then onto the other half of the park. A good deal of the in-between land is owned by a group called the Custer Battlefield Preservation Committee (I am a lifetime member), so that is land that is accessible. The Crow's Nest is private, but with the proper arrangements, you can get there. And yes, you have a clear shot of the LBH valley from there, though you will struggle identifying things. I will try to post a couple of pictures so you can have a general idea. I will be there next June when I meet up with five of my dear friends, but I have not put together any itinerary as yet. We are usually there and in the environs for about eight days, so we'll see as time gets closer. Steve Andrews-- AZ Ranger-- on this site can help you a lot. He will know many of the private landowners, most of whom are really good people and put up with all our shenanigans, year after year. You will learn more and understand more as you continue on these boards. And by the way, you have alluded to the "other" boards, similar to this one. There are some good people there as well, but I have found this is a much more serious site and the historical distortion considerably less... a lot less personal, iconic favoritism displayed here. You will hear-- or read-- about this site being anti-Custer, pro-bentsen, pro-Reno; that is completely false. There is considerably more equanimity here regarding history and its figures. But you will learn that in time. Again, thanks for your very kind words about Strategy. Keep asking, keep asking, keep asking... Best wishes, Fred.
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Terrain
Aug 17, 2015 16:32:55 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on Aug 17, 2015 16:32:55 GMT -6
Joe/Fred, Steve and I visited CN in June. Steve even found a battle marker on the Divide, that of a battle/skirmish that took place there, that I was not aware of. It happened 2 years before the LBH battle. We met a couple land owners, they were very cordial. One of the landowners even disputed the traditional location of the Crows Nest. His argument made sense and the view was just as good and not far off, but enough. You can watch the tour buses on Reno Hill from either location, no field glasses required.
Joe, thanks for the pix.
Regards, Tom
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Terrain
Aug 17, 2015 19:33:05 GMT -6
Post by fred on Aug 17, 2015 19:33:05 GMT -6
One of the landowners even disputed the traditional location of the Crows Nest. His argument made sense and the view was just as good and not far off, but enough. I have found the locals to be very cordial and for the most part, quite understanding of us crazies. One wonders, however, about all these local theories. They all have them; they are all experts; and they are all off the grid... or most of them anyway. This spot wouldn't be on the divide, would it? Or maybe a little higher up on the hill? Did he have any specific reasons? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 17, 2015 21:40:44 GMT -6
Sometimes I think it helps wearing a western hat. One the persons gave us directions and said turn right at the white propane tank. Spoken like a true cowboy. It made perfect sense to someone riding a horse.
This year a great visit. We were invited to the NPS living quarters and had a good visit. Tom and I purchased some poster pictures with poetry written by Steve Adelson. We got Mike and Steve to sign them since Mike took the pictures. Steve still wants Tori arrested for riding in the back of Terry's truck.
Then a few days later bc and myself were invited into Putt's house and sat around and talked.
A great trip.
We drove to the divide three times in my truck and the last time we started on SFRC. It was quite dusty for those riding in the back of the truck.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Terrain
Aug 18, 2015 7:37:33 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on Aug 18, 2015 7:37:33 GMT -6
One of the landowners even disputed the traditional location of the Crows Nest. His argument made sense and the view was just as good and not far off, but enough. I have found the locals to be very cordial and for the most part, quite understanding of us crazies. One wonders, however, about all these local theories. They all have them; they are all experts; and they are all off the grid... or most of them anyway. This spot wouldn't be on the divide, would it? Or maybe a little higher up on the hill? Did he have any specific reasons? Best wishes, Fred. Fred,
Adjacent to divide marker, but not right on it all the way up in the pines, but a shorter walk. View same. Not saying guy is right, but is somewhat closer to the cavalry travel route.
Regards, Tom
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Terrain
Aug 18, 2015 20:02:41 GMT -6
Post by fred on Aug 18, 2015 20:02:41 GMT -6
Adjacent to divide marker, but not right on it; all the way up in the pines, but a shorter walk. View same. This is essentially the theory espoused by Vern Smalley. It holds no water. Or maybe too much. Not far from there is a small depression, east side of the divide. Smalley claimed the Crow scouts got lost, winding up on the divide rather than the Crow's Nest proper. Smalley then goes on to quote Varnum about the terrain resembling some at West Point and that depression being the spot where Varnum slept. Too fanciful, too forced... and I disagree with you about the view. It is good, but not like what you see from up top. I do believe, however, Custer made a second trip, not to the Crow's Nest, per se, but to about the spot you are referring to. That I am pretty sure of. And that is when he borrowed DeRudio's Austrian field glasses. The pines you speak of are just in front of the ridge's crest. Best wishes, Fred.
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