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Post by dave on May 19, 2015 12:22:19 GMT -6
Some of the questions I asked of Fred were
Reno's sobriety must be addressed What effect if any of Bloody Knife's brain/blood in his face What was the ammo situation Did Reno's retreat/charge doom Custer
Just showing what I see as questions needing to be asked. Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on May 19, 2015 13:10:03 GMT -6
More questions. These are general things people could want info on mind you.
Did Reno's breakout to Reno hill cause Custer's defeat.
How many of the tribes were engaged in Reno's attack.
I'm not sure how to phrase this but when Reno attacked, did the entire village more towards him to counter or did the more northern end even know it was happening until it was almost over.
How long (time wise) was the Valley attack.
the whole Bloody knife incident. Did it unhinge Reno or was the mount, dismount stuff reasonable, if it happened.
would one have to cover the subject of drinking going into battle? How ridiculous some of the rumors are about the amount of booze Reno had.
Beth
Sorry Dave, I started the message earlier then had to run the dog to the groomer, came home and just posted without checking to see if others had asked the same questions.
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Post by jodak on May 19, 2015 13:14:46 GMT -6
1. Why did Reno follow the contour of the river instead of charging straight down the valley? Was that the appropriate thing to do? 2. Why did he charge in line as opposed to column? Was that the appropriate thing to do? Should they have initially been in column and then transitioned to line? 3. Somewhere I read that there were trunks of cottonwood trees, that the Indians had cut down so their horses could feed on the bark during the winter, littered across the valley floor. Is that true, and if so, how much disruption did that, as well as animal burrows, etc., cause to the charge. 4. What impact did the condition of the horses have? a) Do we know what portion of the new, inexperienced horses that had recently been received were in Reno's command? b) Were they tired with some falling behind? c) Did some become excited and uncontrollable? 5. Once deployed in skirmish line, was it necessary/appropriate for Reno to personally enter the timber to check the reports of Indians infiltrating there? 6. Did Reno subsequently order the entire command into the timber, or did it just sort of happen? Some say one thing, while some say the other. 7. Did the Bloody Knife incident happen as traditionally related? Did the mount/dismount/mount scenario play out as is traditionally recounted? If so, was it due to Reno's effectiveness being truly degraded, or was he only temporarily startled and recovered? 8. Why were instructions via trumpet apparently not given at any time during the valley fight, especially when beginning the retrograde? Is that an indication of lack of clear thought on Reno's part? 9. How much of a threat was represented by Indians on the far side of the river firing across into the timber location? 10. What was the performance of the various subordinates, particularly Moylan, and how much impact did that have on the overall course of the fight. 11. Why was trooper marksmanship apparently so poor, with no more casualties than there were inflicted upon the Indians (There has to be more to it than the normal reasoning that they didn't have enough ammunition for practice)? 12. Elaborate upon the portion of Indians armed with modern rifles vs. older firearms (types) vs. bows/arrows 13. Should some sort of defensive stand have been attempted at the river by the first arrivals (including Reno) so as to cover the crossing of the others? Would it have been feasible? 14. Were the troopers truly as closely pressed as is usually related? At least one was said to have arrived on the bluffs with a freshly taken Indian scalp, indicating that he had the time to take it.
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Post by quincannon on May 19, 2015 13:18:15 GMT -6
Dave:
1) Unless there was a nearby traffic cop to access blood alcohol levels, to determine if Reno was advance guarding over the legal limit, how do you suggest that this subject be addressed to anyone's satisfaction?
2) What effect would anyone's brains being blown in your face have on anyone? Again, it probably would not matter to Billy Batson or Clark Kent, but it just may be a titch disconcerting to most of us mortals.
3) I think we know what a basic load was and that number of rounds is not in dispute. What we do not know, and have no way of knowing is the number of rounds expended in the skirmish line phase.
4) Dismiss from your conscience thought that all movements made in the direction from whence one came is a retreat.. They are not.
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Post by Beth on May 19, 2015 13:25:07 GMT -6
Beth: I believe attack, charge, and assault were pretty much interchangeable terms to the unwashed heathen of the 7th Cavalry. Actually charge and assault are very similar in meaning and I would have no heartburn with either being used, but attack has a much broader meaning, and I believe unsuitable. See those are the type of things that need to be explained to someone who doesn't have a military background. I read attack and to me it could mean just shooting into the area at range. Charge though has the image of riding through the village with sabers drawn ala Waterloo. I don't think I am alone with that image. And the question becomes what did Custer want Reno to do. (Again I am trying to recall my own thought processes as I started looking seriously into the battle) Another thing that would or could be mentioned is that in a charge ala the Royal Scots Grey--horses being ridden hellbent for leather into the village, exactly the limit each soldier had for shots, which weapons they could use, and if one could reload. I believe one of the best ways to get rid of myths about an event is to provide solid information showing how unlikely the myth is. Beth
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Post by Beth on May 19, 2015 13:41:54 GMT -6
It needs to be more than a one or two line glossary entry Dave. It should leave absolutely nothing open to discussion. They are what they are, but if your target audience is not a member of the German General Staff, there must be a complete explanation of concept, not just a one liner. There are items that can be handled in a glossary, but other things would need more information. Whoever would write such a book would have to decide if they are writing it for someone who barely knows what end of the horse to point in the direction you want to go, or someone who wants to command the free world. What level of reader is the book aimed at would set how much complete or general the military information needs to be. Is it a primer or is it a work that will define the valley fight for generation. glossary items might be something like tribal names both what we say and how tribes identify themselves like Sioux vrs Nakota, LaKota and Dakota. or military terms from the time like fours (I think that is a term I see once in awhile--send off a four)
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Post by Beth on May 19, 2015 13:47:24 GMT -6
Just thought of another point that isn't discussed often. Reno's messages to Custer, the timing and if he responded or what Custer responded.
When did Reno realize that Custer was on the bluff and not behind him?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 16:20:39 GMT -6
Some of the questions I asked of Fred were Reno's sobriety must be addressed What effect if any of Bloody Knife's brain/blood in his face What was the ammo situation Did Reno's retreat/charge doom Custer Just showing what I see as questions needing to be asked. Regards Dave - Will never be answered to the satisfaction of everyone. Plenty of evidence to draw multiple conclusions. - The effect was apparent; this is when Reno lost control. Given he was a veteran of many battles, he should have been able to keep his wits about him and deal with the effects after the battle. - A real concern, but should have been sufficient to defend the timber for a longer period until Benteen arrived. He was only a short distance away. - Yes, the retreat doomed Custer, although he was probably doomed regardless of what happened in the valley. Will never know what could have happened had he held and been joined by Benteen. The retreat effectively took seven companies out of the fight and left GAC to fend for himself against the entire village. Question we really need answered is why GAC didn't go into the valley behind Reno. He must have had a compelling reason for going to the bluffs. Regards Mark
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Post by tubman13 on May 19, 2015 16:54:26 GMT -6
I still feel the village, itself is key, not only to Reno as he was stepping in a fire ant nest, but also because it was a level thoroughfare to both ends of the battlefield and was never dealt with. If Custer had followed up Reno's attack(support) it would have never been an issue. If the cavalry had massed south of the village, the outcome would have been different.
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Post by mac on May 19, 2015 17:43:36 GMT -6
As with all parts of this action the valley portion needs some time analysis. Remembering Reno has no knowledge of where anyone else is. His question then must be when will support arrive? This assault had a use by time. I think Reno realised that they had reached that time. Agree with the other points made as sources for chapters etc. Factoring all those in it becomes a question of how long can I stay here unsupported and when can I expect support? He could never answer the second question. Cheers
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Post by quincannon on May 19, 2015 18:25:28 GMT -6
We glossed over this several days ago, possibly without serious notice. It must however be discussed in any serious look at the valley portion of the fight.
Key Terrain: The only key terrain that would be of concern to Reno was Ford A. Failing to occupy or cover Ford A is critical because those who hold or cover it control access or egress into and out of the valley, from a tactical perspective. There are other ways in and out of course, but none that allow you to maneuver the regiment in whole or part, from the direction they were coming. Loss of Ford A to Reno was a death sentence, and had it not been for an accident of terrain allowing them to cross over (at a very difficult place) and ascend the bluffs, they would have never made it back to Ford A.
Montrose mentioned the critical moment the other day. Retreat was called for the moment Reno realized that Custer was not following. It was not just because Custer was not behind (no support). It was because Custer not being behind left Ford A uncovered.
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Post by Beth on May 19, 2015 19:15:20 GMT -6
Thanks QC, that was an aha! moment for me.
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Post by quincannon on May 19, 2015 20:14:44 GMT -6
I probably should have defined key terrain Beth. I keep forgetting that most here do not have an IBB Degree.
Simply put, key terrain is any location on the ground the possession of which materially aids one side or the other. We tend to think of it as high ground that offers a position of advantage. That is not so, or at least not always so. It can be any place where advantage is present, or where the other side can take advantage of your misfortune or negligence.
What really gets me is that most of the most senior of these men, Custer in particular, had spent their early years in cavalry service during the ACW, and any one of them that fought in Virginia, should have realized the importance of a ford. Cavalry battles in Virginia were largely a disputing possession of fords.
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Post by Beth on May 19, 2015 20:27:51 GMT -6
I probably should have defined key terrain Beth. I keep forgetting that most here do not have an IBB Degree. Simply put, key terrain is any location on the ground the possession of which materially aids one side or the other. We tend to think of it as high ground that offers a position of advantage. That is not so, or at least not always so. It can be any place where advantage is present, or where the other side can take advantage of your misfortune or negligence. What really gets me is that most of the most senior of these men, Custer in particular, had spent their early years in cavalry service during the ACW, and any one of them that fought in Virginia, should have realized the importance of a ford. Cavalry battles in Virginia were largely a disputing possession of fords. Sometimes I think Custer must have viewed the terrain he was going over as just an obstacle to his goal and never stopped to think how to use it, or how it could be used against him. I know that is probably overly simplistic though.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 20, 2015 4:07:55 GMT -6
Some have mentioned how the Indians would part like the red sea when charged by a large body of cavalry, this could have happened with C Company and did happen during the Reno battalion charge to breakout of the timber. But I wonder if this would have been the case if Reno would have carried forth his charge towards the village?
I think the Indians would get out of the way and let the soldiers pass, but this was when they were allowing them to move into open ground or away from the camp circles and non-coms.
But would they allow the cavalry to reach the village, if they parted like we think they did on other parts of the field, then it’s like opening the gate and letting their enemy strike at the heart of their village.
I don’t think they would allow this, but how many would stand especially on foot against a mounted charge containing 140 troopers.
Another point: between the times Reno’s battalion crossed the river and formed skirmish line, Custer’s battalion was seen by number of troopers moving along the bluffs, now this would suggest that Custer was placing a river and a line of bluffs between himself and Reno, but didn’t anyone think of informing the Major? I know the chain of command would be broken whilst moving to contact but these were small companies but no one deem it right to mention that they saw their regimental commander on the high ground, not even to their 1st sergeant. This would be important news to Reno as it would seem like Custer was not in any position to support him in the valley.
Last couple: Did Reno skirt the river to conceal his advance? And was it stupid for Custer to form a plan of attack with Reno going straight up a blind alley and himself going the scenic route without first seeing the objective?
Let’s face it Reno was sent down a valley with no prior knowledge of what actually lay ahead apart from there might be a village down there, he didn’t know how big it was or were it began, in fact no one knew anything.
Ian.
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