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Post by herosrest on May 2, 2015 0:24:08 GMT -6
Ducemus Essay 'Chapter' for 'Little Bighorn for Dummies'All thinking, planning, scouting and strategy pursued by Alfred Howe Terry during his summer campaign of 1876, was intended to prevent the escape of hostile tribes known as 'Winter Roamers', and force surrender to life upon designated reservations. It was broadly understood by the army that Sitting Bull's lieutenatants would avoid combat other than upon their own terms unless caught by surprise and forced into flight and defence. ■ During the early evening of 25th June, senior officer's commanding companies of the 7th Cavalry mounted Weir's Peaks and raised a guidon whilst observing for indication of companies in advance with the regiment's Commander. Some while earlier, a single company had advanced onto the same terrain in hope of assisting the thrust downriver which had been intended to cross into the valley of the Little Bighorn River and assist with the attack into that valley. The scene above was previously repeated as the two platoons constituting D Company of 7th Cavalry arrived down river of the peaks led by Lt Winfield S. Edgerley. That companies guidon would have been visible down river, as were those of the companies downriver seen to be in possesion of the enemy. ■ During retreat from the opening phase of combat, three companies led by Maj. M.A. Reno, quit their fight in the Little Bighorn valley to the south of a big village and were driven across the river to terrain now known as Reno Hill or less commonly, The Reno-Benteen Defence Site; where they were joined initially by three companies led by Capt. Frederick W. Benteen and shortly afterwards by a pack train of supplies and a rear guard force which was the regiment's twelfth company led by Capt. Thomas B. McDougall. The view above is that available to officers on Reno Hill before advancing towards Custer's command which offered fine observation of the hostile's camp in the valley as tepees were hurriedly collapsed and a series of perhaps mystifying comings and goings occured. ■ It should be simply obvious, that initial viewing of the big village gave indication of the expected hurried flight to safety. Subsequently, the tepees were raised up some mile or so further down the valley - all within plain sight of Maj. Reno and Capt. Benteen before their advance towards Custer. It is obvious beyond reasonable doubt that it was hoped that the perceived flight from the valley was acceptable to Reno and Benteen, who only turned their interst to uniting the regiment once it became apparent the hostiles intended to remain in their presence. ■ That this was the way of things was given in testimony by George Herendeen during a subsequent investigation of the conduct of Maj. Reno during the battle (see below - large block of text) ■ During late afternoon and evening of 25th June, the camp in the valley relocated a mile or so down river, leaving a false impression of its size to any but an experienced eye. A count ordered by Brig. Gen. Alfred H. Terry, indicated some 1800 tepees, which should roughly be halved in assessing the village size and its population. ■ Initial reporting of events to Brig. Gen. Terry indicated that Maj. Reno's retreat onto bluffs east of the river was continuosly assailed until nightfall, without opportunity to unite with the companies further down river. This was entirely misleading and untruthful but accepted at face value then and remains unfortunately ignored today. TERRY'S OFFICIAL REPORT ON THE CUSTER DISASTER - www.littlebighorn.info/Articles/terryre1.htm
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Post by herosrest on May 2, 2015 0:40:27 GMT -6
Ducemus
This is a balanced assessment of events on Reno Hill, during the afternoon of 25th June 1876, which requires consideration, pause, and utmost control of the knees, please.
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Post by fred on May 2, 2015 6:26:36 GMT -6
This is a balanced assessment of events on Reno Hill... Herosrest, Nothing you have ever put up here has been "a balanced assessment." Not on Reno Hill, not in the valley, not anywhere. But thank you for trying. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 2, 2015 7:52:10 GMT -6
Would that coulee behind the sergeant be MTC? And the hill with the smoke be Calhoun? Then that area that runs parallel with it must be deep coulee.
Ian.
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Post by fred on May 2, 2015 8:35:03 GMT -6
Would that coulee behind the sergeant be MTC? And the hill with the smoke be Calhoun? Then that area that runs parallel with it must be deep coulee. Ian, That sign is the Weir Point marker. The coulee partially blocked by the sergeant would be Cedar. The "highway" running horizontal and slightly "declining" from right to left is MTC. The high ground just beyond would be Luce/Nye-Cartwright and the smoke would be Finley-Fickle up to Calhoun, then Battle Ridge. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 2, 2015 9:09:22 GMT -6
DucemusThis is a balanced assessment of events on Reno Hill, during the afternoon of 25th June 1876, which requires consideration, pause, and utmost control of the knees, please. I read the page of Herendeen testimony and it contradicts your statement. He does not state that he counted circles and got confused. In fact to the contrary it states that the tipis were down and then back up again. His estimate is 1800 tipis from Reno Hill. Where do you see he made an estimate from any other location in the testimony you posted.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 2, 2015 11:28:38 GMT -6
Thanks Fred I was miles out. have you noticed that the painting and photo are different, I wonder if the artist either added a bit of artistic license or was in another place when set up his easel as I thought he would have took the view offered by the marker.
Chuck I think that is a little too far to set up the .50 HBM2 and the 60mm M2 mortars.
Ian.
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Post by fred on May 2, 2015 13:57:24 GMT -6
have you noticed that the painting and photo are different, I wonder if the artist either added a bit of artistic license or was in another place when set up his easel as I thought he would have took the view offered by the marker. Ian, I did not read his post, but the photo he put up bears no resemblance to the marker. The marker is at Weir Point and shows the view, probably from the loaf northward. The terrain photo was shot from Benteen Hill, just south of Reno's position and you can see Weir Point in the far distance. Check the terrain just right of center and you can make out two little peaks, then a dip to the right, and then a flat, mesa-type feature. Those are the peaks and loaf with the NPS service road bisecting them. I am sorry, but I cannot wade through whatever he posted... I haven't the time or the energy for fantasia... though some of his pictures are absolutely marvelous: he really has a knack for that sort of thing. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by herosrest on May 3, 2015 2:47:52 GMT -6
DucemusThis is a balanced assessment of events on Reno Hill, during the afternoon of 25th June 1876, which requires consideration, pause, and utmost control of the knees, please. I read the page of Herendeen testimony and it contradicts your statement. He does not state that he counted circles and got confused. In fact to the contrary it states that the tipis were down and then back up again. His estimate is 1800 tipis from Reno Hill. Where do you see he made an estimate from any other location in the testimony you posted. DucemusEducation prepares us to think and expect decimals - our modern preoccupation with the power of zero's. However, in sign talk, the fist or open hand as often as not, 'represented' five in tribal presentation before the children were introduced to powers of ten in classrooms. A good example of this inherent problem and its errors was Two Moons count using willow sticks, of the dead on Custer's battleground. His fist was interpreted decimal, when he was presenting by fives. Half the count deduced from his presentation and the sum exactly matches the dead reported to Terry by Chas Bradley. An alternate theory is that Two Moons reported the sum of the exercise, which had one individual lay down a stick whilst another picked it up. So, did he have a sense of humour or was the sign talking naturally confused and confusing because of expectation. Interesting little problem this is. A similar twist applies to identifying horse colors, red, white, bay............. sorrel................ because the Cheyenne for brown is complete nightmare, also for black, and red white gray and pretty much all colors 'sound' the same. This leads to almighty confusions and for instance there being gray horses at Last Stand Hill. There were not. A half dozen company C animals lay immediate to Custer and the balance of dead animals were those of F Company. Two Moon gave that, Red, White and Black horses were on the hill but Gall told that the gray horse company were not at the place. The reported evidence supports Gall - presented by Edward S. Godfrey.
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Post by AZ Ranger on May 3, 2015 7:47:32 GMT -6
I read the page of Herendeen testimony and it contradicts your statement. He does not state that he counted circles and got confused. In fact to the contrary it states that the tipis were down and then back up again. His estimate is 1800 tipis from Reno Hill. Where do you see he made an estimate from any other location in the testimony you posted. DucemusEducation prepares us to think and expect decimals - our modern preoccupation with the power of zero's. However, in sign talk, the fist or open hand as often as not, 'represented' five in tribal presentation before the children were introduced to powers of ten in classrooms. A good example of this inherent problem and its errors was Two Moons count using willow sticks, of the dead on Custer's battleground. His fist was interpreted decimal, when he was presenting by fives. Half the count deduced from his presentation and the sum exactly matches the dead reported to Terry by Chas Bradley. An alternate theory is that Two Moons reported the sum of the exercise, which had one individual lay down a stick whilst another picked it up. So, did he have a sense of humour or was the sign talking naturally confused and confusing because of expectation. Interesting little problem this is. A similar twist applies to identifying horse colors, red, white, bay............. sorrel................ because the Cheyenne for brown is complete nightmare, also for black, and red white gray and pretty much all colors 'sound' the same. This leads to almighty confusions and for instance there being gray horses at Last Stand Hill. There were not. A half dozen company C animals lay immediate to Custer and the balance of dead animals were those of F Company. Two Moon gave that, Red, White and Black horses were on the hill but Gall told that the gray horse company were not at the place. The reported evidence supports Gall - presented by Edward S. Godfrey. Herendeen spoke English and did not need a translator at the RCOI
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Post by Beth on May 3, 2015 15:09:24 GMT -6
I read the page of Herendeen testimony and it contradicts your statement. He does not state that he counted circles and got confused. In fact to the contrary it states that the tipis were down and then back up again. His estimate is 1800 tipis from Reno Hill. Where do you see he made an estimate from any other location in the testimony you posted. DucemusEducation prepares us to think and expect decimals - our modern preoccupation with the power of zero's. However, in sign talk, the fist or open hand as often as not, 'represented' five in tribal presentation before the children were introduced to powers of ten in classrooms. A good example of this inherent problem and its errors was Two Moons count using willow sticks, of the dead on Custer's battleground. His fist was interpreted decimal, when he was presenting by fives. Half the count deduced from his presentation and the sum exactly matches the dead reported to Terry by Chas Bradley. HR, that makes absolutely no sense, if they counted by 5's and not 10 it was be a base 5 number system and the numbers would look totally different. Plus base 5 counting would never just give you double of a base 10 number. If he counted in base 5, he would have not reported the number as 488.The base 5 number for 488 is 3423. The number 488 could never be a base 5 number because it has 8 in it. Which means it was counted on at least an 9 digit number base. In a nine base number 488 is 404 in 10 base. The same for counting tipis. First using a base 5 number system there would never be 1800 tipis. 1800 (base 10 counted) tipis would be 24200 in base 5. Yes, I used a converter.
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Post by herosrest on May 3, 2015 15:59:36 GMT -6
Ducemus - Hi Beth, Two Moons body count on the Custer battlefield was reported in different sources as 388 and 488. This requires a degree of consideration since the higher number makes completely no sense and was typo. The 388 / 2 gives Bradley's figure. So, did Two Moons make it all up, or simply report fact? He had members of his band, count the dead. This would have been a hazardous duty due to wounded and undiscovered survivors in hiding. This helps to explain the many head injuries. Bradley counted 194 in decimal, Two Moons efforts would arrive at similar or the equal number. Presenting five fingers as one fist, the total is almost doubled. Adding the number of sticks laid down, with the number picked up, equals. Take your pick. In assessing the matter, that simple difficulty of the powers - illustrates very straight-forward difficulties of both sign talk and translations of language. I concluded that Two Moon knew what he meant, whatever that was and since the number of bodies was finite, I am perfectly at ease with these conclusions. If you have read 'The Vanishing Race' account of the battle by Two Moons a glaring error occurs with colours where the Chief 'must' be reporting YELLOW or GOLD stripes on cavalry uniforms which he recovered but the interpreter gave 'RED'. Any military then and now, will tell you that the artillery are red stripes. The interpreter was female and nothing to do with the army, hence the error in print. Accepting this, consider topography where differentiating ridge and hill is a nightmare in sign and even worse for stream, river, creek, coulee, ravine and dry run to name but a few. I shan't wallow in these matters but a cut bank is as easily a cliff. Stanley Morrow imparted that problem to his photograph of the place where some of the soldiers were drowned in the river, according to him. Five fingers equal one fist. Be well. One and all - Cheyenne accounts of colour and related to anything including horses is completely unreliable. There were white horses in Custer's HQ Morrow's bluffs cdm15018.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/compoundobject/collection/p267301coll3/id/3038/rec/55 The cut bank at Ford B. 7th Cavalry at Last Stand Hill. Little known photograph. cdm15018.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p267301coll3/id/3410/rec/1Some drilling at Lame Deer.......... no fracking though. cdm15018.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p267301coll3/id/3693/rec/7As pointed out, here is an image of............... Ash Coulee. cdm15018.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p267301coll3/id/3696/rec/18Lovely picture of rear ends of a couple of horses - cdm15018.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p267301coll3/id/3542/rec/3
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Post by Beth on May 3, 2015 18:12:04 GMT -6
Ducemus - Hi Beth, Two Moons body count on the Custer battlefield was reported in different sources as 388 and 488. This requires a degree of consideration since the higher number makes completely no sense and was typo. The 388 / 2 gives Bradley's figure. So, did Two Moons make it all up, or simply report fact? He had members of his band, count the dead. This would have been a hazardous duty due to wounded and undiscovered survivors in hiding. This helps to explain the many head injuries. Bradley counted 194 in decimal, Two Moons efforts would arrive at similar or the equal number.
I think that the more likely reason is that they just miscounted, especially when you consider the conditions at the battlefield. Someone called a pile of limbs a body while someone counted a torso. They didn't consider if the limbs and torso was one or two people. US burial parties had the same problem didn't they? To this day do we have an exact body count? Or is it based on the return numbers (isn't that what the Army calls the records for who returned from a mission.) Beth
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Post by herosrest on May 4, 2015 3:26:26 GMT -6
DucemusBeth, this moves into what has become a central conundrum of this battle's aftermath and accepted opinion. Accept the military data and refute that of the tribes. Both sides were coy about what took place, how it took place and about how events were portrayed and perceived. Very shortly after the fighting, large numbers of Cheyennes were under arms in US service and doing sterling work. Who is the more reliable, TM or Reno..................
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Post by Beth on May 4, 2015 3:41:49 GMT -6
DucemusBeth, this moves into what has become a central conundrum of this battle's aftermath and accepted opinion. Accept the military data and refute that of the tribes. Both sides were coy about what took place, how it took place and about how events were portrayed and perceived. Very shortly after the fighting, large numbers of Cheyennes were under arms in US service and doing sterling work. Who is the more reliable, TM or Reno.................. You take all the accounts you can find, read them and then decide. One person is not more reliable than the other because unless they were sitting on the same inch of ground for the entire day, they each are going to have their own experience. However if a large number of the stories you read are either in close agreement or support each other and one or two stories are extremely different. I am going to give a big hairy eyeball at the different stories to try and figure out why their stories are different. Frankly I find in many places the military information and the tribal information support each other on the events and validate both sides. Beth
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