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Post by welshofficer on Jan 12, 2015 20:58:25 GMT -6
No dispute over passing Benteen. Considerable dispute over what was said to Benteen, McDougall and Mathey.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 21:04:22 GMT -6
Did Kanipe testify at the RCOI? Was he ever under oath? I previously posted Benteen met Kanipe, the carp is: "Come on, big village." No he did not. Wonder why he wasn't called to testify. Strange one that. Strange that so few were called actually, over 400 survived and only a select handful called.
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Post by Beth on Jan 12, 2015 21:16:58 GMT -6
When is the first time Kanipe's story was recorded?
Beth
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Post by chris on Jan 12, 2015 21:39:06 GMT -6
Beth, I don't know. Perhaps Fred or another will help us out. I suspect it's through Walter Camp but, again, I don't know. Sorry. Best, c.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 13, 2015 5:06:54 GMT -6
Chris, you are correct. In 1908 Kanipe accompanied Walter Camp on a tour of the battlefield, which resulted in in Kanipe giving his account on June 16 and 17, 1908 to Camp.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 13, 2015 5:24:05 GMT -6
FYI, Martini was interviewed by Camp on 10/24/08 and 5/10/10.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 13, 2015 5:59:59 GMT -6
Scarface posted:
So if he speeds up and follows the trail and comes to the point were two trails divided, which one does he take? if he asked Martini and he says Custer is up there, what about the sound of battle coming from the valley, should he ignore it? seems to me like he will ride to the sound of the guns as he never really questions Martini much anyway so my money is on Benteen and Weir riding towards Reno rather than Custer.
When you were talking about distances earlier, did you base these on how the crow fly's? and if so are we talking about American or European crows?
Ian.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 13, 2015 6:05:38 GMT -6
Ian, are your crows smaller than US, asking because your cars tend to be. Also Custer's Crow scouts flew pretty quickly.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 13, 2015 6:13:03 GMT -6
Tom I know that things are bigger over in the states, I remember an American guy saying to me when I was over there in 2008, that it took him a full day to drive his car around his land, I said yes I had a car like that once, I soon sold it because it was Carp.
Now the Black Crows are a good band, good old rock n roll. Ian.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 13, 2015 6:32:44 GMT -6
So, with all this other yammering aside, could Custer's movements have been considered a flanking movement, because it darn sure was not any kind of flank attack?
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 13, 2015 6:37:43 GMT -6
How about calling it a “right hook” others call it the “hammer and anvil” but at the end of the day he proceeded to march around the right end of the valley, thus enabling him to attack from the opposite end to Reno, but the problem was his objective was too big and he had to keep going to try and view the north end.
Ian.
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 13, 2015 6:46:19 GMT -6
Ian,
GAC rounded the left flank of the hostiles facing Reno in the valley, across the river and hidden by the bluffs.
But, as Montrose has pointed out (and even Dark Cloud will agree given his views on mobs/C+C), GAC ultimately would have had to launch a frontal assault across a river against a different bunch of hostiles.
Obviously, for reasons we have discussed ad nauseam, that never occurred. Assumptions proved wrong and time and space caught up with GAC after Ford B. Views differ as to what caused GAC's withdrawal from Ford B.
WO
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2015 7:03:22 GMT -6
Scarface posted: So if he speeds up and follows the trail and comes to the point were two trails divided, which one does he take? if he asked Martini and he says Custer is up there, what about the sound of battle coming from the valley, should he ignore it? seems to me like he will ride to the sound of the guns as he never really questions Martini much anyway so my money is on Benteen and Weir riding towards Reno rather than Custer. When you were talking about distances earlier, did you base these on how the crow fly's? and if so are we talking about American or European crows? Ian. One of the big mistakes I think GAC made was not coordinated simultaneous attacks from front and flank. When Reno attacked hundreds came to meet him, retreat to timber, and subsequent chaotic uncoordinated retreat to Reno Hill. The NA then disengaged and went to tackle GAC once he had attacked. If Benteen had come at pace, and followed the sound of gun fire to Reno, perhaps the NA would not have been able to break away from this area. GAC was overwhelmed from all directions with NA coming out of village and from Reno Hill. If the NA were divided between Reno/Benteen and GAC command with contact on multiple fronts could things have been different?
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 13, 2015 7:19:59 GMT -6
That said, SF, Benteen did not dawdle. AZ rode his route, photographed it, matched it to Darling's book, and Benteen made good time over the ground, following his orders. The mission was not Saving General Custer. Kanipe had no message for Benteen, particularly, you're thinking of Martin. That said, note that Kanipe's tale is told twice, the later version decades after much more exciting and inclusive of detail. Martin didn't recall meeting Boston for decades, but because that was such a perfect example of Brotherly Sacrifice, it immediately got installed into the canon. But Martin said Custer's brotherS and nephew were there before he (Martin) left from Cedar Coulee/around Weir Pt., and that it was Benteen who first noticed the wound in his horse. Martin later changed that to Boston telling him, then back to Benteen.
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 13, 2015 7:21:14 GMT -6
Steve, If you want a serious discussion of the decision making process in the valley, I am willing to start a thread. The discussion of a Custer flank attack based on Reno's attack is arrant nonsense. Note that the amateur believes that units equipped with the 1873 carbine has an effective range of 3 miles. It does not. First, the term advance guard immediately tells you where the main body is located; and what it should do. For a regimental cavalry attack, that means main body is one tactical bound behind Reno, 3-500 meters. So if we accept Reno was an advance guard, we also accept that Custer was grossly negligent in his duty. Assume after 3411 GAC pulled back and consolidated the regiment. So the only major defeat is the Reno BN, where the soldiers cutoff perish. GAC would have been court martialed and convicted for gross incompetence, for the second time. Whatever happened at LBH after 3411 is not relevant. GAC sent Reno into the valley as main effort, and then abandoned his own men. I believe GAC changed his mind. But not telling Reno is a gross failure of command. Reno had sent 2 messengers, and the coward Gerard had also self appointed himself as a messenger when he fled. Second. GAC obviously changed his mind about attacking in the valley. Without seeing the village or enemy main body; he decided to head north. He decided to ignore the Indians fighting Reno. So by definition, there was no flank attack, he never in his life got near the valley. He headed deep into enemy territory to find other enemy elements. For all you Air Land Battle fans, this is a deep penetration, so an envelopment vice a flank. Can we all get back to what this thread is actually about...?
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