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Post by montrose on Jan 9, 2015 9:50:25 GMT -6
Steve,
If you want a serious discussion of the decision making process in the valley, I am willing to start a thread.
The discussion of a Custer flank attack based on Reno's attack is arrant nonsense. Note that the amateur believes that units equipped with the 1873 carbine has an effective range of 3 miles. It does not.
First, the term advance guard immediately tells you where the main body is located; and what it should do. For a regimental cavalry attack, that means main body is one tactical bound behind Reno, 3-500 meters. So if we accept Reno was an advance guard, we also accept that Custer was grossly negligent in his duty.
Assume after 3411 GAC pulled back and consolidated the regiment. So the only major defeat is the Reno BN, where the soldiers cutoff perish. GAC would have been court martialed and convicted for gross incompetence, for the second time. Whatever happened at LBH after 3411 is not relevant. GAC sent Reno into the valley as main effort, and then abandoned his own men.
I believe GAC changed his mind. But not telling Reno is a gross failure of command. Reno had sent 2 messengers, and the coward Gerard had also self appointed himself as a messenger when he fled.
Second. GAC obviously changed his mind about attacking in the valley. Without seeing the village or enemy main body; he decided to head north. He decided to ignore the Indians fighting Reno. So by definition, there was no flank attack, he never in his life got near the valley. He headed deep into enemy territory to find other enemy elements. For all you Air Land Battle fans, this is a deep penetration, so an envelopment vice a flank.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 9, 2015 10:21:03 GMT -6
The prerequisite for an advanced guard is to be in advance of somebody. Reno was, and then suddenly he was not.
I have little doubt that Reno went in thinking he was an advanced guard. Thinking it,being it for a time, then being left hanging out to dry. Every action Reno did was consistent with being an advanced guard, until he realized that he was not in advance of anything.
A flank attack goes into the SIDE of an enemy line or array. An envelopment goes deep and into the REAR of the overall battle space. The enemy that faced Reno presented no assailable left flank to anyone. That flank was refused by river and bluffs. Only in the valley and on the enemy arrays right was their a potential for a flank attack.
Will is absolutely correct here. What Custer did was attempt a deep battle space penetration, and one right out of the Air Land Battle playbook. Deep battle space penetrations though have a prerequisite, that being a clearly defined objective. Did Custer have a clearly defined objective? If you think he did, what was it? Clearly defined mind you, not happened upon, or might be. If you cannot define it, then you must conclude that it was an exercise in aimless wandering.
As I often remark to Fred, it matters not if you do everything in terms of technique correctly, when the premise that those actions are part of is wrong
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 9, 2015 10:52:45 GMT -6
QC,
Just to add one point - GAC was the flank to nothing.
He went after another bunch of hostiles, necessitating a frontal assault across a river.
Reno's reliance upon the GAC wing was about as secure as his own left flank was secure in that initial skirmish line.
WO
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 9, 2015 11:14:10 GMT -6
Thanks Will and Chuck
So the communication broke down in Reno Creek / Ash Creek at the point where Custer decided not to follow Reno into the valley. Since he had changed his mind what should he have relayed to Reno on his change of plan?
Thanks
Steve
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 9, 2015 11:31:08 GMT -6
Disagree with application of 'amateur' and 'professional' here. If they are intended to apply to the noun 'soldier' or 'combatant' Costume Lad is neither, as I most certainly am not and most here are not. Amateur soldiers would be civilians defending their homes like the franc tireurs in 1870, or acting in groups in ad hoc arrangements with distant, or zero training. Professionals (guerrillas can certainly be pros) are trained to standards and held to them, amateurs are not. keogh is neither. He's a guy in a costume insulting the memories of the guys he allegedly adores. You elevate him by calling him an amateur soldier. Or tactician. Or historian.
Among the professionals are combat veterans and those who aren't. Combat vets rank higher in value of opinion about combat. Although amateurs have cleaned the clocks of the professionals on occasion in combat, they tend to come from warrior cultures. Not always. Zulus were trained. The Sioux were not.
The training of pros in peacetime of long duration can end up being somewhat counter productive in that the cultures and ratings of accomplishment can become artificial and a goal distinct from - and valued above - their jobs as soldiers. At least in the opinions of military and naval experts, too often in hindsight, who have illustrative examples in the American and British armed forces as well as others. The best example is that the Royal Navy rarely trained firing their guns in the later 19th century and early 20th because they'd have to repaint their ships. This is why Fisher, Percy Scott, Jellicoe, and others had a much tougher job than Tirpitz, whose navy had nothing to unlearn and few idiotic traditions.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 9, 2015 12:24:26 GMT -6
WO: The only thing that can be said of Custer regarding flank, is that he went around a flank. Envelopments by their very nature must go around someone's flank (unless they go over the top), somewhere, to achieve access to a rear area. You know that therefore, this is for general information
Steve: Anything in the way of communications originating with Custer and directed to Reno, should first be, I ain't coming thataway, I am going thisaway, therefore do thus and so. The content is secondary to the idea of Reno being notified of change. Change of plans therefore is not the problem or even the issue, the issue is failure to notify. Commanders are supposed to command, and the only way to exercise that command is to communicate.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 9, 2015 12:35:05 GMT -6
Reno was not asked commit a faint or a hit and run, he was asked to attack a village, this he did, short of a suicide attack. If he was told he would be supported he was not. I don't know for sure that Custer meant to hang him out to dry, but after a brief look down from the heights at Reno, I don't think Reno entered his mind again before the bullet did.
Regards, Tom
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Post by welshofficer on Jan 9, 2015 12:35:38 GMT -6
QC,
I guess GAC went around the flank of the hostiles that Reno was then left in no position to disrupt, let alone to fix....
WO
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 9, 2015 12:45:19 GMT -6
Another thought or two, regarding notes or messages sent to Benteen. How certain was Custer that they would find Benteen, in a timely fashion? Was Martini's knowledge of the terrain that much better than his knowledge of English? What if, in fact, Benteen had actually pitched into something?
Recon, intelligence, and communication! Sorely lacking, lay it at the feet the Top Dog.
Regards, Tom
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Post by crzhrs on Jan 9, 2015 12:56:51 GMT -6
Custer's "decision making" sorta reminds me of Elliott at the Washita when he was heard to exclaim: "Here goes for a brevet or a coffin" when Custer decided to alter his "support" for Reno and went chasing after fleeing Indians. Almost like a reflex action when a cat sees movement . . . something to chase after.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 13:03:21 GMT -6
Hi all, new to the boards and very new to the subject. I apologize in advance for any ignorance on the subject matter.
I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Custer's communication broke down. Reno was ordered to attack the village, create a distraction while Custer advanced and mounted a flanking attack. What broke down is Reno. He failed to follow orders and then fell to pieces under fire. Custer didn't change his plan so therefore had no reason to send word to Reno. Custer sent for Benteen, who, like Reno failed to follow orders. Custer communicated correctly; just a shame his officers failed him (not that the result would have been any different).
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 9, 2015 13:18:27 GMT -6
Scarface, you care to show me anywhere his officers were let on this plan you seem to know so much about. I'm just an ill read country boy so maybe you can show me anywhere any of the surviving had this plan discussed with them. Keogh, Calhoun, Yates, among others obviously got the memo, but I will be damned if the living ever mentioned it, even under oath. Can you say conspiracy?
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 9, 2015 13:25:40 GMT -6
Hi all, new to the boards and very new to the subject. I apologize in advance for any ignorance on the subject matter. I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Custer's communication broke down. Reno was ordered to attack the village, create a distraction while Custer advanced and mounted a flanking attack. What broke down is Reno. He failed to follow orders and then fell to pieces under fire. Custer didn't change his plan so therefore had no reason to send word to Reno. Custer sent for Benteen, who, like Reno failed to follow orders. Custer communicated correctly; just a shame his officers failed him (not that the result would have been any different). Welcome scarface I think the difference between following right behind the advance guard and moving parallel to it while placing the river and the bluffs between your friendly troops and also the big village is a significant difference and should be communicated. Don't you think it would be significant on what Reno would decide to do? I once checked two rather large Indians at Lake Powell and they stated they were going to kick my ass. I told them my back was right below us in the boat .They laughed. I quickly turned to see what was so funny and the boat and officer were not on shore rather around 100 yards offshore. So I drew my baton and we finally got the citations taken of. The support was not where I thought it would be even though the officer told me he would support me if the contact needed it. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 13:27:05 GMT -6
I don't think it was a conspiracy but it does have a hint of cover-up about it. Reno was ordered to attack the village - that is not in dispute. He abandoned this order shortly after coming under fire. Benteen was ordered to come quick and bring the packs; he didn't. They had their orders and they failed to obey. Custer would have known that Reno had engaged, Benteen was coming, so he moved forward with his attack. He had set the pieces in motion and pressed his attack. I would think when he attacked he would have expected Reno to continue his assault on the village and for Benteen to follow in the rear.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2015 13:31:14 GMT -6
Hi Az, I don't think it would have made any difference to Reno. From his actions that day, I believe he would have folded regardless.
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