Regimental Flag

[Diane Merkel]

A visitor to the LittleBighorn.info website wrote with this question:

From what I understand so far, the Regimental flag at HQ which was blown down twice and Lt. Godfrey re-planted the flag in the ground. What color is this regimental flag, blue or yellow. Later this was stowed away with the pack train on the day of the battle. Blue or yellow? Thanks.

Please help him if you can.

Diane

[Yan Taylor]

Hi Diane, here are three that I have located;





Ian.

[quincannon]

Diane: First off the Regimental Flag today would be referred to as the Regimental Colors. In that day however colors as we know them would have been of smaller size and referred to as a standard. The best information I have is that they were blue containing only the National Coat of Arms with a scroll beneath carrying the number and name embroidered. The standard was two feet five inches wide and two feet three inches on the lance. It was made of blue silk. The National Coat of Arms and scroll embroidered thereon, and the standard itself edged in yellow silk fringe. All this per U S Army Regulations for Cavalry Standards and Guidons dated 1863, and not revised until 1881.

There is some conflict though concerning if it was this type standard in question. It very well could have been, I understand, an unauthorized flag of some sort privately purchased, not to be confused with Custer's personal flag, which as a non general officer it is also doubtful he was authorized. The flag goes with general officer rank or position and he was not and held not in 1876.

[Yan Taylor]

Hi Chuck, you are up and about early, unless I am late, I just found this;

link

Ian.

[quincannon]

Ian: The standard in the link conforms with the U S Army Regulation of the time. The first one you posted not quite, but close.

The regimental coat of arms depicted in your third photo is post 1921 when those coats of arms were authorized for all color bearing units, regiments and separate battalions. That coat of army would be superimposed on the National Eagles breast, embroidered, vice the shield, with the scroll bearing the unit name and number positioned to pass through the eagle's beak/ The crest and wreath of the coat of arms, if any was placed above the eagles head. In the case of the 7th Cavalry the wreath is the alternating blue and yell, and the crest is the arm with saber at charge.

[fred]

Diane,

The flag that blew down while the command was halted on the 24th and was commented on by Godfrey, Wallace, and McIntosh was not the regimental standard. In all likelihood, it was Custer's personal flag... and there is some serious question as to what that flag looked like. There is virtual unanimity that this so-called personal flag was the usual red-over-blue with white crossed sabers, but a closer look at participant accounts may indicate otherwise: a full blue field with two white stars may have been carried rather than what we traditionally believe.

I do not know what the Michigan Wolverine standard looked like, but if Custer carried that during the last year of the Civil War, it may have been that flag rather than the traditional red-over-blue.

Now the fun really begins...

I am not even close to being an expert here-- Ray Hillyer is the standard-bearer-- but with all the research I have done it appears the actual blue, authorized regimental standard may have been left at Fort Lincoln. There is not a single shred of evidence that puts the blue standard with the pack train: only modern-day speculation. That flag is probably the one at the museum.

It appears, in all likelihood, the Seventh Cavalry carried a second, semi-authorized standard into the battle and that flag was lost. In the 1870s, several regiments carried a second, substitute standard on campaign, choosing to leave the actual regimental at their post. This substitute was called the "national eagle flag" and was yellow in color (assuming the yellow was for the cavalry) with an eagle and scroll embroidered on it. There are at least two accounts of that yellow flag being the one the regiment carried into the battle and no accounts of the flag being blue.

In the mid-1880s, the yellow regimental standard for cavalry was authorized by Congress (?) and that replaced the blue. This is probably the genesis of the debate.

There is provenance for this... several photos exist of Custer and a contingent near a flag with a light background, plus there is an actual national eagle flag at the West Point museum.

By the way, this was debated on a Facebook page and was summarily shut down-- la-la-la!!-- so I suspect the person making the inquiry here was privy to that discussion. As far as I know there is no additional evidence extant, so those who disagree are only offering undocumented opinion. Naturally.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Yan Taylor]

Chuck, its ironic that one of the most famous battles fought by the 7th was the BLBH, and they boxed their sabres, now sabres are one of the stand out features on the flag.

Here is another site;

link

Ian.

[quincannon]

The real shame Ian is that the 7th Cavalry caught the imagination of Hollywood due to the Custer connection, at a time when Custer was the Idol of American Youth, able to leap tall buildings in a single, break wind with meaning during a hurricane, and all sorts of other neat things. I think there was once a Custer secret decoder ring you could send away for with ONLY 13,000 Wheaties box tops.

Truth is that the 7th Cavalry as a regiment (1866-1957) meaning a brigade sized tactical unit was pretty much a rout step outfit. There were two exceptions. In the Philippines operating as dismounted cavalry they were quite good, but their running mates the 5th, 8th and 12th were just as good. In Korea, under Billy Harris (a field artilleryman) RCT7C was as good as they came, but so was Billy Harris.

Best looking unit insignia is that of the 1st Cavalry, in my opinion. I also am fond of the 15th's as well.

[Yan Taylor]

Yes Chuck, the name “7th US Cavalry” does conjurer up a vision of blue uniforms and yellow scarfs, all parading along to the tune “Garryowen”, it’s the same over here with the “Blues & Royals of the Household Cavalry”.
As you know, I have been looking at adding Divisional Badges to the Divisional histories you have done for me, and when searching I came across this;

link

Very colourful I think.

Ian.

[quincannon]

Well the proper name for a divisional badge is a shoulder sleeve insignia (SSI), more commonly a shoulder patch. There are several sites that contain them, and I remember one that has their heraldic meaning included but do not remember which one. Also keep in mind that a few have changed over he years, and make sure you have the correct one for the period in question. The Marine Divisions wore SSI's in the period 1942-46 as well. Your decision to include the Mardivs necessitates getting those patches as well. I don't know where you would find them in reproducible form. Maybe Steve does.

The 7th Cavalry always had a reputation that far exceeded their deeds. They are largely a creation of Hollywood, playing upon the Custer myth. All the really good cavalry of the post civil war period was down in the southwest fighting Comanche and Apache. The rest were also-rans.

Very few units have a deserved reputation for excellence during their entire existence as a regiment, that period being from date of constitution (placed upon the roles of the Army) to 1957 when all the tactical regiments, save five (two of those now gone) were reorganized into separate battalion sized organizations with only the regimental name remaining. The only one I can think of immediately is the 27th (Wolfhounds) Infantry Regiment, and possibly the 15th Infantry as well.