7th Officers Drinking

[alanw]

The thread 'Can we believe anything Indians said' touched on the drinking of officers of the 7th. As it is off-topic I though i would start a new thread.

Several officers were known to be hard drinkers - undoubtedly some would be termed alcoholics now.

Reno's drinking has historically been highlighted the most seemingly to slur his character. I don't for one minute think he was drunk in the valley/timber, though I would be very surprised if he was not on the evening of the 27th. Reno was however eventually dismissed from the army due to his drinking.

Benteen:- nothing is mentioned about Benteen's drinking being an issue at LBH, but in 1887 he was suspended for drunk and disorderly conduct at Fort DuChesne, Utah. He was convicted and faced dismissal from the Army, but President Grover Cleveland reduced his sentence to a one-year suspension.

Weir: at least in recent times Weir is given a hard time for his drinking - he died within months of the battle. Detractors simply put his early death down to his hard drinking. Nowadays, he might exhibit signs of PTSD. From some accounts he certainly seemed severely depressed and could not come to terms with the inability to get through to aid Custer's command. Nothing is written of his actions on Reno Hill. This again has been taken by detractors as 'lack of bravery', or not 'leading from the front', whereas in reality little has been written of most of the officers actions there.

French: French's drinking is new to me, but seems to be highlighted as he was a detractor of Reno, and because he was a drunk his testimony must be unreliable.

In summary, different writers have used the drinking of certain officers to slur their characters, sometimes to back up their own agenda regarding the battle.

[crzhrs]

Weir was one of Benteen's "pests" . . . kept pushing Benteen to move faster. Once at Reno Hill he supposedly asked permission to go to Custer but was denied. He disobeyed orders and headed toward the firing from Custer's command. The rest of the command thinking an order was given left piecemeal with no thought or plan of action, thus threatening the entire remaining 7th Command. Once he reached "Weir Hill" rather than charging to save Custer he turned tail and fled back to Reno Hill leaving no organizational fall back . . . just like Reno who has been chastised for his "charge" to the rear. It was only Godfrey who had the presence of mind to form skirmishes to hold off the Indians until the command got back to Reno Hill that saved further losses. So for all the huffing and puffing by Weir to ride to Custer's rescue he ends up running back with his tail between his legs . . . then disappears from accounts on Reno Hill. I can see why he drank himself to death!

[Yan Taylor]

He did well to go from 1st Sgt to 2nd Lieutenant and finally 1st Lieutenant in 18 months, I know it was during the civil war and promotions were a different kettle of fish to peace times, but he fought in a couple of major engagements and went up the ladder.

Ian.

[alanw]

Mar 18, 2014 11:31:12 GMT -6 crzhrs said:

Weir was one of Benteen's "pests" . . . kept pushing Benteen to move faster. Once at Reno Hill he supposedly asked permission to go to Custer but was denied. He disobeyed orders and headed toward the firing from Custer's command. The rest of the command thinking an order was given left piecemeal with no thought or plan of action, thus threatening the entire remaining 7th Command. Once he reached "Weir Hill" rather than charging to save Custer he turned tail and fled back to Reno Hill leaving no organizational fall back . . . just like Reno who has been chastised for his "charge" to the rear. It was only Godfrey who had the presence of mind to form skirmishes to hold off the Indians until the command got back to Reno Hill that saved further losses. So for all the huffing and puffing by Weir to ride to Custer's rescue he ends up running back with his tail between his legs . . . then disappears from accounts on Reno Hill. I can see why he drank himself to death!

I wasn't trying to defend Weir's actions at LBH - more emphasisng the point that some writer's/scholars only use the drinking habits of an officer that fits their agenda. I don't believe any of the officers at the LBH were without fault. However, whatever action they might have taken- i.e stayed in the timber, followed Weir at a gallop, I don't think it would have changed the result one iota. And of course the ultimate blame lies at one man's feet - Custer, by then a long time teetotaller I do believe!

[Deleted]

Alanw,

Thanks for starting a new thread, good move.  Thought it might include the poor ol' enlisted also, this is from SOTMS, (L&J is Leighton and Jordan, post traders):

The names of very few enlisted men show up on L& J’s accounts, maybe because they paid cash, so it is possible that some of them outdrank Reno, but among the fourteen surviving officers nobody compares with him. During the first three weeks of August he bought seven gallons and two demijohns of whisky, which comes to about ten quarts a week. Lt. Edwin P. Eckerson took second place— far behind Reno— with three gallons. This may indicate just how deeply the major was shocked, because an officer who customarily swallowed such an amount would not be on active duty.
_{Connell, Evan S. (2011-04-01). Son of the Morning Star: Custer and the Little Bighorn (p. 51). Farrar, Straus and Giroux. Kindle Edition.}

No question drinking was prevalent back then. Connell mentions a description of a trader store so packed it was like flies.

Oh, and just because it was bought, doesn't show who drank it. (mentioned that to temper comment from the olde and grumpye.)

Best,

c.

[crzhrs]

Apparently alcohol was far more tolerant back then than it is now. However, when I was in the military during the Vietnam Era, alcohol (and drugs) were prevalent and there weren't many soldiers I knew who didn't drink or get high. I can only assume alcohol consumption back then was an accepted thing. However, I find it hard to believe that any officer would go into battle drunk, knowing full-well the effects it would have on decision-making and performance. AFTER the battle is another story. Once the shock of the 7th's defeat sunk in people looked for reasons and causes for the disaster. Many Indians said the soldiers acted as if they were drunk, however Indians spoke in metaphors and that could mean the soldiers fought so badly they must have been drunk rather than being incompetent, just like the soldiers committing suicide which could again mean the soldiers sold their lives so cheaply they committed suicide. And to say Reno or anyone else was drunk rather than failed to live up to his duties as an officer was easier to get across. Weir was a Custer Fan and he may have felt the utmost kind of remorse for running when Indians charged rather than going to meet them head-on and assisting Custer that he spent the few months left of his life in an alcoholic funk resulting in his death of "melancholy", as one doctor said.

[Dark Cloud]

We've discussed this years back. Booze was a big incentive. Germans issued Schnaps, Japanese rice wine, Russians vodka, the British rum. The US was once dry, and officers enjoyed visiting the British. Of course, as with prostitution, it was prevalent throughout. Childish to think it would not be. So, it's somewhat hypocritical for the west to get condescending about 3rd Worlders on whatever floated their boat in an attack. I understand Speed in its various forms is popular and sanctioned by our forces now. Guys exhausted, on speed, after a week in combat and more speed ought not to surprise if they do something they would not normally do.

The water from the Rosebud's upper reaches apparently was near undrinkable and the booze was. Its qualities of dehydration might not have been known then. And as Benteen said, there wasn't enough booze to get anyone blitzed on the night of the 25th.

I think it amazing that combat vets aren't ALL drunks, and forgivably so. People used to be shocked that performers 250 nights a year, entertaining at full energy a herd of people they didn't know as an event host, often became addicted. That's hard, hard work. So's being a soldier, more so, and with stiffer contract penalties for not being 'on' and 'good' all the time.

[crzhrs]

In the end, to go into combat, one must be out of their minds. To put up with the horror, the incompetence, the insane orders, to fight till the last drop of blood, one must be drunk or high to accept what one must face. Maybe if we were all sober and/or not high there would be no wars, no need to hate anyone who doesn't look or believe like us, no need to listen to the politicians who decide war or peace because they'll be safe and warm back home while the young people put their lives on the line for the insane decisions of politicians. Sorry, I hate war!

[crzhrs]

If I remember correctly Zulus during the war with the British (1879) smoke ganja (pot) to give them courage. One would need all the courage you could muster if you were to charge face-first into the guns of the Martini rifles the British used. Why don't we all agree that if we have to get high or drunk to fight a war to just forget about it and stay home!

[fred]

Mar 18, 2014 12:13:29 GMT -6 alanw said:

... whatever action they might have taken- i.e stayed in the timber, followed Weir at a gallop, I don't think it would have changed the result one iota.

Alan,

I tend to agree with you. Plus, I don't believe Tom Weir disobeyed a single order that day. I am a big fan of Weir.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[quincannon]

Crazy Horse: Never apologize for hating war. Any sane person hates war.

[crzhrs]

<Crazy Horse: Never apologize for hating war. Any sane person hates war>

Unfortunately the ones who decide we go to war or not have me concerned whether they are in their right minds (and it's not just in the US but Russia, North Korea, Iran or any other country that talks big without thinking of their big mouths and talks of bravery while they suck down another shot of native brew and caviar or lobster. Some of these Chicken Hawks have nothing to lose, and I doubt many of them have children in the military who will be fighting or dying because of their parents ludicrous decisions. Gotta wonder whether a big-mouthed politician is as dangerous as a drunk soldier!

Anyway . . . time to wrap this up for the day. See you all in a day or so!

[tubman13]

I was a terror when drunk, I don't drink any more, then again, I don't drink any less. And here's to this thread! The list of E.M. in M Company alone, Court Martialed, for alcohol related infractions is way to large to detail here.  

Regards,

Tom