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Post by fred on Mar 2, 2014 10:12:35 GMT -6
... is Minneconjou Ford, ford B? Yes. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 2, 2014 12:01:26 GMT -6
It is also called Medicine Tail Coulee Ford (MTC Ford).
The difference between advanced guard and Vanguard is intended purpose. I don't think Hare was an advanced guard either, although his actions mirror more the advance guard than and element of the vanguard. My take on Custer's remark to Reno "You have the advance" is more of you are leading Major, and "you will be supported" an indication that it was Custer's intent to follow.
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Post by alfakilo on Mar 2, 2014 12:13:56 GMT -6
My take on Custer's remark to Reno "You have the advance" is more of you are leading Major, and "you will be supported" an indication that it was Custer's intent to follow. Me too. The insistence on the applicability of the term 'advanced guard' to Reno's orders is typical of how internet wannabes try to establish their so-called credibility...they find some little referenced term in some book and then hang on to it for dear life. In their eyes, they are 'in the know'. Sad to say, those who are really in the know, typically take a different view of things. AK
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Post by quincannon on Mar 2, 2014 13:00:44 GMT -6
The first question to be asked of these folks is if it was an advanced guard what was he guarding against. There and their argument falls apart.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 2, 2014 13:51:02 GMT -6
I wonder if Custer’s orders to Major Reno would have been more clearer if he actually liked the guy? I bet if his brother Tom was leading that Battalion he would have a better idea of what his brother was up to.
I mentioned this term advance guard the other day and rightly got my feathers ruffled, but thinking about it again (Chuck you beat me to it), if Reno was this so called “advanced guard” then what was he actually guarding? The pack train had its own escort/guard in B Company plus Benteen was still active in the area. So the term advance guard speaks for itself really, it could be used along with flankers to stop the main column from being ambushed and I suppose act in a recce role if need be, but there was no main column, GAC should have said this is a two pronged attack now get on with it.
By the way, I may be wrong here but… didn’t every man who witnessed these orders being issued come up with a different wording for the incident, what I mean is didn’t they all describe the orders as being issued with different words.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 2, 2014 17:52:19 GMT -6
An advanced guard is an element detached from the main body designed to reconnoiter, probe, sweep aside insignificant opposition, and most of all protect from surprise the main body, usually a column, while in motion. Flank and rear guard are also used for similar purposes. It is most often used in elements the size of brigade and above. Battalions and companies normally do not move alone so there is no need for such a formal structured element detached from them to provide these services. They do however take measures similar to provide for the requirement of more localized protection, all the way down to platoon level. At squad level there are not enough assets to do this so they rely on choice of formation, over watch or both.
The key element to understand is that the advanced guard is the forward most element of a column in motion, when the situation is uncertain. Their primary purpose of being out front is what was mentioned above and the distance they travel in front is primarily so the main body does not become involved prematurely in the action the advance guard develops.. The main body must have freedom of action to maneuver, to react. Once the main body deploys the advance guard normally steps aside or allows the main body to pass through.
The old term vanguard, which I mentioned yesterday, has the purpose of being first in either a deliberate or hasty attack, forming a base which other elements of the main body extend to right or left as they come up and join in the attack. In a deliberate attack you move out in column from an assembly area. The lead company or battalion is the vanguard. Their route is focused upon the objective of the attack. As the column moves forward those units in the rear most often branch off seeking their place along what you determine the probable line of deployment to be. Hopefully you reach the PLD before the lead unit is engaged. Regardless though the line building continues in preparation for the assault phase. That is how attacks are done, and every attack is a variation of circumstance on this very simple formula. I am so glad Custer did not have artillery, because I would then be required to outline final coordination lines, the lifting and shifting of fires, and the rest.
What Custer did was launch a hasty attack, and blew it, not because of haste, but because of not taking into consideration those two terrain features on the right, which if used properly would protect his right, and allow him to maximize combat power focused on but one objective. He had all the tools he needed to achieve a desirable outcome and threw it away. Montrose outlined a few days ago how Mackenzie did business. That is why the 4th Cavalry was a top drawer outfit, while the 7th Cavalry was the drawer you put your unmatched socks.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 3, 2014 4:55:53 GMT -6
Chuck, here is how the US Army Infantry Regiment moved in column during the Korean War; You will probably recognized this system. Ian.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 3, 2014 5:56:45 GMT -6
I think he had just enlisted, at the time, probably read about it later though.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 3, 2014 7:29:01 GMT -6
Hi Tom, yes it may have been a bit early for him, and as you said Chuck may have come across it, he has also studied the Korean War, and we have had a few discussions in the past about the US Marines at Chosin, saying that it may be a bit early for him when he first sees this post, it may take him two cups of coffee to reply.
Ian.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 3, 2014 7:50:36 GMT -6
Ian, coffee is about all I will do today, getting hard snow on east coast again. Fred should enjoy as well. How's your rain issue going, my son in law's brother is somewhere NE of London and has said the south and west are worse!
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 3, 2014 8:09:25 GMT -6
Yes Tom the southwest (Cornwall, Devon & Somerset) got it worse, the Welch also got drenched, but they keep the rain off us in north Cheshire <g>, but seriously though, we have been lucky around my area, we have had some rain, but it has turned cold at the moment and both Susan and I got our ass frozen off on Friday night at the rugby match, it is still cold with morning frost. I was going to finish off the concrete in the back garden but the cold will crack it, so it’s on hold for now.
London may get rain tonight but there is a dry spell coming across so your relation will be all right, the trouble is though Tom (and I think I said the same to Fred a while back) that when the east coast of the USA gets bad weather we end up getting the tail end of it and it is usually wind and rain.
So get wrapped up Tom and hunker down, Fred must be used to it by now and he won’t be missing Florida too much, so good luck.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 3, 2014 11:07:31 GMT -6
I am sorry I was late answering your posts Tom and Ian. I was busy completing the part of my memoirs devoted to my advising the Duke of Wellington to defend that high ground just south of Waterloo.
That diagram is pretty much how it is, and I hope when Pretend Keogh sees it he notes the distances.
A couple of notes though. That combat recon patrol is probably a reinforced Regimental Intelligence and Reconnaissance Platoon. The forward security element is a company of the battalion that has the advance guard duties. More than likely it is reinforced by a tank platoon from the Regimental Tank Company. If not there is sure to be a platoon of tanks with the Advanced Guard. The right and left flank security most likely will be detained from the lead battalion in the main body, and the rear security from the last battalion in line.
A key element to remember is that the combat recon patrol, and the forward security element are all part of the advanced guard and are responsible to the commander of the advanced guard. They do not operate as separate parts but rather part of that whole. Those umbrellas over the size designators on the unit map symbols designate a task organization, by reinforcement or detachment
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 3, 2014 17:39:08 GMT -6
Chuck, when you mentioned the distances on the diagram, it made me look again and that Regiment could be spread out over 11 km (6 miles) or even longer.
Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 3, 2014 17:58:38 GMT -6
Chuck, Hougoumont Farm was for me the crucial position on Wellington’s right flank, and some think it was just down to the British light Companies but the Nassau (Dutch) troops and Jagers from the Hanoverian Brigade (all under the command of Lt. Col. Wyndham of the British Army) also played their part before being forced back, the defense of the Farm itself was down to the Light Company of the 3rd Coldstream Guards and they turned the place in a mini Alamo, and this defense prevented Napoleon from turning the British flank.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 3, 2014 18:34:06 GMT -6
That's about right Ian, maybe even a little more, all made possible by the increasing range of weaponry, and in particular supporting fires.
You know it is a funny thing about Hougoumont. I remember clearly telling the Duke just that. Hold that farm I said and your right is secure. Sure am glad he followed my advice. All kidding aside you are correct. If that right could have been pinned back the battle is won, and it does not matter how many Prussians show up in the late afternoon.
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