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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 7:25:05 GMT -6
Post by mac on Sept 17, 2013 7:25:05 GMT -6
Ian makes the point that it would be very hard for Benteen to actually bring the pack train over the terrain to where Custer was. What do we think? Does this impact on the meaning of the note to Benteen?
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 7:41:54 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 17, 2013 7:41:54 GMT -6
Hello Mac, concerning the Pack Train, there are two issues to look at here;
1 x Ammo (and how to distribute it between three Fighting Battalions) 2 x Speed (how long would it take the Pack Train to reach Ford A, and how long would it take to get to Calhoun Hill)
And did Custer request all the ammo for his own Battalion or did he think that Reno would also need some. Just an order to bring the Train up can open up a can of worms.
Ian.
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 7:43:52 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Sept 17, 2013 7:43:52 GMT -6
Mac: My inclination is to say yes. However my background and training says no. It was very hard to bring pack mules through the jungle, and the treacherous terrain to Myitkyina. Now I understand the pitfalls of comparing the 7th Cavalry of 1876 with the 5307th Composite Unit (Provisional) of 1944, but need trumps nice every time.
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 7:44:03 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 17, 2013 7:44:03 GMT -6
mac I think the note could mean many things which makes it confusing to me. Montrose states it only means one thing. Benteen seems to focus on the pack train as far a speed of travel. Its protection was not needed until they got closer to the Indians.
We use some pack animals to transport fish into remote areas and pack camps and dead animals. We also have officers that ride mules. From the descriptions of this particular pack train it leaves much to be desired with the ease of movement. I don't think you can speed it up. You can string it out by moving the faster animals at a higher rate then the slower but in general the overall speed is controlled by the slower animals or they are left behind.
Even the horses such as Pvt Thompson were left behind. The Sgts try to get them up and moving and then if that doesn't work they abandon the trooper and horse.
The mules speed is below that of a Company when speeds above a trot are needed. The mules steer from the front and usually follow a horse. White mares were used a lot. The mules are not in a pack string tied together.
So shoot the lead mare and stampede the pack train. They are prey species and if you can get them scared and some start running the rest will do the same. We know the Indians were using this tactic on that day on the Custer battlefield.
The alternative under fire is to gather them up and hold them as they did on Reno Hill. For whatever reason, maybe herd instinct, they stand together as their ranks are depleted.
AZ Ranger
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 7:59:57 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 17, 2013 7:59:57 GMT -6
Chuck where did Custer expect to be in a short period of time when Cooke wrote the note. If Custer knew he did not intend to cross the river and wanted all the ammunition to himself and none for Reno who was actually engaged that seems wrong to me.
The terrain is not a limiting factor for it is possible for the train to go anywhere on that battlefield if given enough time. The whole bunch of Indians willing to fight and wanting what that pack train was transporting seems to me to a factor in decision making on which route to take.
We know the pack train can not keep up with Custer on the move they were all ready way behind. Reno was potentially observed in a fixed location engaged with the Indians.
I don't see Custer choosing any of those locations that they end up in at the time of sending Martin.
Steve
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 8:12:57 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 17, 2013 8:12:57 GMT -6
I am not sure on the totals here, did the Pack Train around 95 to 100 Mules?
So would each Company get issued six to seven Mules?
That would give us between 72 and 84 Mules for Company use and maybe 12 for ammo (one for each Company) top total of 96? So would Custer demand all the ammo and not provide any for Reno, after all his Battalion had been in action for a period of time.
Ian.
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 8:27:37 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Sept 17, 2013 8:27:37 GMT -6
Steve: I understand your point and agree with it. The place to go for the pack train was across Ford A and into the valley to support Reno with Benteen in the lead screening that movement. I believe that was probably the intention based upon what Custer saw at 3411. The scenario Fred provided for what he saw, the timing and so forth suggests that when Custer left 3411, what he would have based the content of that order/non order on was Reno on a skirmish line advancing, slowly but advancing. That view is backed up by what Martini saw of Reno a short time later as he was riding to the rear to find Benteen, Reno still skirmishing, and based upon what Martini exclaimed when he reach Benteen, doing fairly well. Under those conditions, what we presume Custer knew at the time it would seem logical that Custer's intention was to add weight to Reno, while he was searching for a back door, a back door he never found.
My only point, that I tried to make in the post above is that difficulty of one piece of terrain over another, cannot be considered, or rather be the only consideration if the need requires transit over that difficult terrain.
In my opinion Custer at the time was not in need of sustenance, where Reno probably would be in short order, nor was he in need of immediate support as he was not yet engaged, and Reno was. All this points me in the direction of the intent was to get Benteen into the fight as quickly as possible, and with sustenance in hand. The logical conclusion then, based upon what we think Custer knew, is get Benteen into that valley.
From a tactical perspective Benteen going into the valley to add weight to Reno, would draw more hostiles onto them, presumably (speculating on Custer's thoughts), making it easier for Custer to rip up their backsides.
The whole problem with nearly every phase of this battle, is to put aside what we know, and concentrate first on what Custer (or any other player for that matter)could have known, then attempt to divine what his probable course of actions would be on that knowledge alone. It is quite a challenge.
I believe we also forget in this day of instant messaging, that there was always a time lag between thought process/order issued and reception of that order and execution. During that period a lot can change for both good and bad. I was in need of information last night, for a response on this board. I picked up the telephone placed a call over a distance of two thousand miles, and had my answer in a couple of minutes. In Custer's day, that same transmission and response would have taken a month, at best.
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 9:00:31 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Sept 17, 2013 9:00:31 GMT -6
I wish I had seen Fred's other pack thread before I wrote what I did above. Had I seen it I would have appended the following.
Why would Custer want Benteen with him? Think about that for a moment. The obvious answer is to add more weight to the envelopment. I suspect most folks presume that, but why. Adding weight to Reno would do two things. With the packs in hand their long term sustainability would be insured, and the chance of them remaining in place increased, and being overwhelmed decreased. Secondly as time passed it would draw more hostiles onto them. Time was Custer's enemy when he issues that order. Custer had to make elapsed time his friend by doing something that would buy him more of that time to find the rear, and eventually assault it. Buying that time for Custer was far more important I think than adding weight to an attack that he was yet to determine the objective of.
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 9:12:07 GMT -6
Post by fred on Sept 17, 2013 9:12:07 GMT -6
Why don't you guys move this "note" and "pack train" discussion to this thread and leave the "They wish they said that..." thread for what DC meant it to be...?
Please remember the situation as it existed when Custer ordered Cooke to send for Benteen and the pack train. Please place everything within its proper context.
To my way of thinking, this was the situation at that time:
1. Reno had just dismounted, had formed his skirmish line, and was advancing, on foot, in the valley. Indians were backing away-- also mostly on foot-- though many were heading into the foothills to retrieve their horses.
2. Custer's command had not fired a single shot... other than juking around.
3. Custer was heading north to find a crossing point and to gather more intelligence.
4. Indians appeared in a state of disarray... apparently running....
5. Custer and his troops were "euphoric."
6. Custer had reached the conclusion that he had the whole shootin' match; there were no Indians or camps to the south: everything was right there.
7. Benteen was no longer needed in the south.
8. Custer wanted his entire regiment "together" (... and do not take that literally).
9. Custer wanted Benteen to come to him, not Reno.
The question now-- as I see it-- is "what" and "where" for the trains.
Best wishes, Fred.
NOTE-- Post transferred from "Pertaining to the Packs" thread.
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 9:17:50 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 17, 2013 9:17:50 GMT -6
Steve, you must be reading my mind, I posted almost the exact thing you did if your post, but you got in before me by 60 seconds.
Chuck, that was the answer I was looking for, I thought that Custer would expect Reno (who was hotly engaged in the valley) to receive at least some of the ammo, because if the valley position fails, Custer’s position is in doubt. And the same could be said of Benteen, when the valley fight was in full flow, Reno needed Benteen more than Custer did, as everyone has said, up to then Custer had not fired a shot.
Also if you have a large unit like the Pack Train, it would be better placed around Ford A than Ford B.
Ian.
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 9:20:55 GMT -6
Post by benteen on Sept 17, 2013 9:20:55 GMT -6
I think all these posts are well thought out and have merit, especially Steves post where he lists the possibilities. Not to throw a monkey wrench into the works, but all these posts deal with what did Custer want. The truth is we don't know what Custer wanted or what he said, all we know is what Lt Cooke wrote. it is possible that Custer said tell Benteen to come quick and bring the Ammo Packs not all the packs, but Cooke wrote packs. Add this to Knipe saying he had a message for the packs (I don't believe him) then 10 minutes later the note referring to packs twice,' Hurray boys we got em" (Knipe) and "They skedaddling" (Martini) and I think it is reasonable that Benteen could have thought 8 companies of U.S. Cavalry had successfully charged an Indian village and Custer wanted his supplies to follow up . Add also that Custer had not told Benteen what Renos orders were, or Reno what Benteens orders were, or tell either one of them what he planned and you have a total SNAFU.
Be Well Dan .
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 9:36:10 GMT -6
Post by montrose on Sept 17, 2013 9:36:10 GMT -6
Just a reminder. The ammunition was around 5-7% of the trains. The majority of the trains were devoted to food. Plus snivel gear like the whiskey cask and someone's birthday cake.
So the relevancy of the trains in a combat sustainment role is very, very thin. I am just kinda thinking that the best combat sustainment of the packs was a slice a cake and a tumbler of whiskey.
The far more important role of the pack train is combat power. You have a cavalry company and 90ish other shooters back there. Park the trains and kill people. Win the battle through fire and maneuver, and win it as fast as you can.
The ammunition issue as discussed here is all out of proportion. If ammo was so critical a factor, detail an NCO and one man from each company out of the pack train. Distribute half reserve ammo to line Companies and half to this Ammo resupply detail, have the detail follow Regt HQ.
This is Rick Flair time. If you want to be the Man, you have to beat the Man.
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 9:41:13 GMT -6
Post by bc on Sept 17, 2013 9:41:13 GMT -6
I tend to view the Martini note as nothing more than to make sure Benteen stopped his mission to the left and to come to the front at the vill and pitch in at his discretion. The packs had been told by Kanipe to take the shortcut but the written order makes sure that Benteen keeps it under his control. Reno was not in trouble yet when the note was written so it wouldn't necessarily mean to go to ford A. Martini was directed to return to Custer if it was safe to do so which means Benteen wasn't coming directly to Custer. The lack of specifics in the order for where he was to go left that decision to Benteen's discretion which also makes sense as Custer didn't really know for sure what was going to happen next. At the time of the note, I think the plan was to feint at ford B to help start the NAs running and also catch them at a choke point at the D fords to kill as many as possible as they ran. Then they destroy the vill and capture as many squaws as they can. Custer saw the size of the vill at 3411 and knew it would be fruitless to cross with five troops at ford B.
To recap, I think the Custer plan was to drive the NAs out of the vill with his fire power. They couldn't cross at ford B yet until they saw Reno driving the NAs so they could link up with Reno. Reno was seen as stopped in the valley but once the NAs retreated from his position and moved north, he would be expected to follow. The valley was too wide at ford B for troops to cross and get hung up in a mass of camps and tipis until the warriors were forced north and Reno was approaching. So the troops at ford B would stay on the east side and direct fire to drive and kill NAs. The troops going to the D fords would do the same. This all changed when the NAs attacked across ford B instead and Reno ended up retreating, but at the time of the Martini note, the plan was still valid.
The Martini note allowed Benteen complete discretion to pitch in where he was needed and that is what Benteen thought as well. He had a delemma at ford A about whether to cross there or not and chose not to and then he had a delemma at Reno Hill as well but that was all because it was all left to his discretion. I believe Benteen believed he was supposed to go to the front but what he did when he got there was up to him.
bc
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 9:46:49 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Sept 17, 2013 9:46:49 GMT -6
I fully agree with Will and have said so many times before that the packs, less ammo, should have been stashed in a hide, those soldier/packers released to their companies, and the battle in its totality found where the hostiles were in the valley. Further the error of moving east was just that an error.
There are only two things required in the attack, ammunition and water. Don't know about you guys but we always dropped packs in either the assembly area, or attack position before crossing a line of departure. We always carried all of our ammo and as much water as our canteens could hold. The rest is nice to have but not worth the weight and its effect on our own mobility therefore not essential ,to the mission.
Where I disagree is with many of his statements regarding the indicators that Custer wanted the Benteen battalion, and packs, to come tom him. That remains a possibility, one I don't discount, but those indicators do not have exclusivity in that there could only be one meaning. It attempting to divine any meaning, we discount the screw up factor, and why that should be discounted, in this of all battles, and with this commander in particular defies the imagination.
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Packs
Sept 17, 2013 10:22:02 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 17, 2013 10:22:02 GMT -6
Dan
We are faced with trying to be in Custer's mind in order to see the meaning of various actions. I agree a scary place to be but worthy of an attempt.
Will and Chuck
I think leaving the pack train behind except for ammunition makes sense yet Custer, Benteen, and Reno all thought about bringing it along. The crows nest area would have been a good choice. why did none of them think about that?
I agree with bc on what the note meant. Come get in this fight that is about to happen.
I have morphed into the supporting Reno only to defend that Benteen would be in compliance if he went across Ford A and Custer was attacking the village from another direction.
Seems to me bring you battalion and the ammunition to me would be clearer if that was the desire or go into the valley and support Reno on the flip side.
That still leave a battalion number of troops with the pack train.
Today is a range day so the smell of gun powder will soon begin.
AZ Ranger
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