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Post by Gatewood on Aug 30, 2013 8:45:34 GMT -6
Dan it is questionable as to whether Reno ever actually ordered anyone into the timber or if they just filtered in on their own or were ordered in by others, like Moylan. In any respect, once the situation was what it was, I just tend to think that Reno thought "There is no reason to stay here, we better get out while the getting is good". As I said previously, his was an offensive force on an offensive mission, and there would have been no reason for him to assume the defensive if he could avoid it.
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Post by fred on Aug 30, 2013 9:12:44 GMT -6
Dan... and Gatewood,
Dan, that is not an unreasonable assumption on your part, though, Gatewood, I think there is enough in the way of accounts that have Reno ordering the pullback. You may be correct, however, in regards to M Company, which in my opinion, was way out on the prairie, the farthest out and the farthest advanced of the two skirmish lines.
Reno was an offensive force and like every simple thing involved with this battle, was ordered to do one thing: attack. That order brought with it myriad permutations... attack "what"? Some say the handful of Indians spotted by Davern, Hard, Gerard, and Herendeen... but I find that fatuous, especially with the village in that direction. So to me, Reno was ordered to attack, clear out whatever was in front of him, all the while Custer would assume the role of a second and more lethal attack force.
Gerard's report of Indians moving up the valley changed everything.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by benteen on Aug 30, 2013 10:13:03 GMT -6
Dan... and Gatewood, Dan, that is not an unreasonable assumption on your part, though, Gatewood, I think there is enough in the way of accounts that have Reno ordering the pullback. You may be correct, however, in regards to M Company, which in my opinion, was way out on the prairie, the farthest out and the farthest advanced of the two skirmish lines. Reno was an offensive force and like every simple thing involved with this battle, was ordered to do one thing: attack. That order brought with it myriad permutations... attack "what"? Some say the handful of Indians spotted by Davern, Hard, Gerard, and Herendeen... but I find that fatuous, especially with the village in that direction. So to me, Reno was ordered to attack, clear out whatever was in front of him, all the while Custer would assume the role of a second and more lethal attack force. Gerard's report of Indians moving up the valley changed everything. Best wishes, Fred. Fred, Captain, you bring up a good point, one I had never thought of in that I just went by what Major Reno said at the RCOI. Which was Custer told him "To advance a gait he seemed prudent and attack the village. He would be supported by the entire outfit" It is certainly possible that Custer just said attack and Reno added the village. I thought about this and based on the entire statement or order , I feel Custer did in fact want Reno to attack the village. I base this on the following, 1... If Custer wanted Reno to drive the Indians that were in the valley and already running why would he tell him to advance at a pace he seemed prudent 2... If again he was to charge Indians in the valley (Again already running) why would Reno need the support of the entire outfit I could be wrong (Nothing unusual) but I have to believe that Custer wanted Reno to attack the Village. Be Well Dan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 30, 2013 12:31:31 GMT -6
Hi Dan, how’s the lawn!
The famous words delivered by Lt. Cook ‘’Move forward at as rapid a gait as prudent, and to charge afterward, and you would be supported by the whole outfit’’ (I hope I have got that right).
But like the note, these words are delivered by a middle man, and I wonder how much Custer actually said, was he a man of few words? Did it take a person like Cook to extend it a bit?
Its words like ‘’Prudent’’ that get me, because it sounds more like a word Cook would say rather than George. You could try and change it a little, just for fun.
‘’Cook, tell Reno to bust his ass up that valley’’ (Move forward at as rapid a gait as prudent) ‘’and give em hell'' (and charge afterwards) ‘’We will be coming from the other end to finish the job’’ (and you would be supported by the whole outfit)
Ian.
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Post by fred on Aug 30, 2013 12:59:55 GMT -6
... I have to believe that Custer wanted Reno to attack the Village. Dan, Nothing wrong with that belief. It's exactly what I believe. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by benteen on Aug 30, 2013 13:02:03 GMT -6
Hi Dan, how’s the lawn! The famous words delivered by Lt. Cook ‘’Move forward at as rapid a gait as prudent, and to charge afterward, and you would be supported by the whole outfit’’ (I hope I have got that right). But like the note, these words are delivered by a middle man, and I wonder how much Custer actually said, was he a man of few words? Did it take a person like Cook to extend it a bit? Ian. Ian, don't worry about me my friend I have had plenty of Gatorade and water, and I am in the shade watching. But thank you for the concern As to Renos orders you are correct, Lt Cooke delivered the message. We are however discussing what Reno was supposed to charge. In your statement you left out 3 important words (Without the slightest doubt in mind that it was unintentional) I probably would have said the same thing out of just memory. But I looked it up just to be sure and this is what Reno said at the RCOI. Lt Cook came to me and said "Gen Custer directs you take as rapid a gate as you think prudent and CHARGE THE VILLAGE afterward you will be supported by the whole outfit" Ian, certainly there can be doubt but if I had to bet, I would say that Reno was ordered to attack the village not some running warriors in the valley. Be Well Dan
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 30, 2013 13:10:39 GMT -6
It's possible Custer meant for Reno not to really engage the enemy but to keep pushing the Indians towards Custer's waiting command and into a situation where the the non-coms would be in the lead and walk into a waiting Custer. The warriors would be more concerned with Reno rather than Custer and the majority of the fighting men would be tied up with Reno leaving the non-coms vulnerable. Unfortunately Reno who may have been confused by the "order" may have felt he would have been backed up by Custer et al rather than Custer waiting for Reno to push the Indians toward a waiting Custer. The non-coms continued onward and the warriors countered to hit Reno who by now had stopped. The plan seemed to be working as the non-coms continued away from Reno and toward a waiting Custer while the warriors countered Reno. My guess is there were more than enough warriors to secure the non-coms fleeing and show enough force to Custer to cause him some hesitation. Any hesitation by the command may have given ample time for more warriors to gather and/or arrive from Reno to force Custer into a fall back rather than an attack.
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Post by wild on Aug 30, 2013 13:36:32 GMT -6
Hi DAN
Lt Cook came to me and said "Gen Custer directs you take as rapid a gate as you think prudent and CHARGE THE VILLAGE afterward you will be supported by the whole outfit" I think you might be missing an all important "," after the word "afterword". Best Regards
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 30, 2013 14:04:04 GMT -6
Hi DAN Lt Cook came to me and said "Gen Custer directs you take as rapid a gate as you think prudent and CHARGE THE VILLAGE afterward you will be supported by the whole outfit"I think you might be missing an all important "," after the word "afterword". Best Regards From the RCOI: Sgt. Davern: "The General directs you to take your three companies and drive everything before you." Fred Girard: "You will take your battalion and try to bring them to battle and I will support you." George Herendeen: " . . . I heard Gen. Custer tell Maj. Reno to lead out and he would be with him . . ." Capt. Moylan: " . . . Reno was sent for and received orders to move forward as the Indians were supposed to be a few miles ahead and retreating . . ." Dr. Porter: " . . . The Adjutant told him (Reno) the Indians were just ahead and Gen. Custer directed him to charge them . . . Custer would support them." Maj. Reno: " . . . Gen. Custer directs you to take as rapid a gait as you think prudent and charge the village . . . you will be supported by the whole outfit." Lt. Wallace: " . . . the Indians were ahead and Maj. Reno . . . was ordered to charge THEM and the others would support him . . . the Indians are on the jump. Go forward as fast as you think proper and charge THEM . . . he (Custer) will support you . . . I heard the order of Lt. Cook to Maj. Reno and I am positive Gen. Custer gave him no order in person. I saw no one but Lt. Cook approach him and I saw and heard no other order given." ________ Apparently there are various accounts of what "type" of order and what exactly the order was for Reno. The majority is that the Indians were running and to attack them, NOT a village.
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Post by benteen on Aug 30, 2013 14:48:45 GMT -6
It's possible Custer meant for Reno not to really engage the enemy but to keep pushing the Indians towards Custer's waiting command and into a situation where the the non-coms would be in the lead and walk into a waiting Custer. The warriors would be more concerned with Reno rather than Custer and the majority of the fighting men would be tied up with Reno leaving the non-coms vulnerable. Unfortunately Reno who may have been confused by the "order" may have felt he would have been backed up by Custer et al rather than Custer waiting for Reno to push the Indians toward a waiting Custer. The non-coms continued onward and the warriors countered to hit Reno who by now had stopped. The plan seemed to be working as the non-coms continued away from Reno and toward a waiting Custer while the warriors countered Reno. My guess is there were more than enough warriors to secure the non-coms fleeing and show enough force to Custer to cause him some hesitation. Any hesitation by the command may have given ample time for more warriors to gather and/or arrive from Reno to force Custer into a fall back rather than an attack. Crazy Horse, Nice to see you posting again. Its been a while. Your post makes sense and is a reasonable opinion. I do however question the idea that Reno was to drive the noncoms into a waiting Custer. What waiting Custer. I say this based on the following, and I hope you remember that I never mind being corrected. 1...Custer never got into the village to wait for anyone, noncom or other. 2... Custer observed Reno in the valley for 8 minutes and could see he (Reno) wasn't driving anyone anywhere. 3..If his plan was to wait for the noncoms to be driven into him, then how could he possibly support Reno with the entire outfit as he said he would if he was at the other end Be Well, again nice to see you back Dan
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Post by benteen on Aug 30, 2013 14:50:50 GMT -6
Hi DAN Lt Cook came to me and said "Gen Custer directs you take as rapid a gate as you think prudent and CHARGE THE VILLAGE afterward you will be supported by the whole outfit"I think you might be missing an all important "," after the word "afterword". Best Regards Richard, Not sure I understand what you mean. Remember I am old and senile and need things explained very carefully Be Well Dan
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Post by fuchs on Aug 31, 2013 0:12:26 GMT -6
It's possible Custer meant for Reno not to really engage the enemy but to keep pushing the Indians towards Custer's waiting command and into a situation where the the non-coms would be in the lead and walk into a waiting Custer. The warriors would be more concerned with Reno rather than Custer and the majority of the fighting men would be tied up with Reno leaving the non-coms vulnerable. Unfortunately Reno who may have been confused by the "order" may have felt he would have been backed up by Custer et al rather than Custer waiting for Reno to push the Indians toward a waiting Custer. The non-coms continued onward and the warriors countered to hit Reno who by now had stopped. The plan seemed to be working as the non-coms continued away from Reno and toward a waiting Custer while the warriors countered Reno. My guess is there were more than enough warriors to secure the non-coms fleeing and show enough force to Custer to cause him some hesitation. Any hesitation by the command may have given ample time for more warriors to gather and/or arrive from Reno to force Custer into a fall back rather than an attack. This would have been a good plan, but only if Custer would have already been in ambush position as the attack started. Something similar worked with devastating results at the Blue Water, but once again the numbers involved there were not comparable. If something along that lines was indeed the plan, it would once again suggest that Custer was a victim of tunnel vision / hubris, as it would require the Indians to react in slow-motion to give Custer enough time to get in front of the refugees, and react exactly as Custer wanted. And "the majority" of (younger) warriors entertaining Reno would still mean that a ballpark 1/3 of (older) fighting men would be protecting the "non-coms", about 500 warriors in Custer own worst case estimate (and likely in reality, too). I don't really get what Reno did "wrong" according to this plan, he tied up a large chunk of warriors, probably about as long as possible, unless he was supposed to fight to the last man and bullet down there. The "slow-motion reaction" of the plan worked up to a point, but not really in favor of the US forces. The non-com reaction was faster, and the young warrior reaction slower than convenient. Not all the the young men rushed into combat right away, but there was a steady increase of warriors engaged against Reno. About 1/2 of the young men never fought Reno, but were still available upstream when Custer showed up.
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Post by fuchs on Aug 31, 2013 0:17:16 GMT -6
gahh, double post
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Post by mac on Aug 31, 2013 2:30:12 GMT -6
"Gen Custer directs you take as rapid a gate as you think prudent and CHARGE THE VILLAGE afterward you will be supported by the whole outfit" If this quote is indeed the order ( and there seems to be variations), I am drawn to the word "afterward". Does this imply that Custer was already thinking Reno could advance into the village with little opposition and then he (Custer) would then be able to position himself to attack below the village? That is - after you charge the village and flush them out I will support you. Assumes indians will retreat in the face of the charge. Interesting thought!? Cheers
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Post by wild on Aug 31, 2013 3:25:04 GMT -6
"Gen Custer directs you take as rapid a gate as you think prudent and CHARGE THE VILLAGE afterward you will be supported by the whole outfit" If this quote is indeed the order ( and there seems to be variations), I am drawn to the word "afterward". Does this imply that Custer was already thinking Reno could advance into the village with little opposition and then he (Custer) would then be able to position himself to attack below the village? That is - after you charge the village and flush them out I will support you. Assumes indians will retreat in the face of the charge. Interesting thought!? Cheers mac Dan That is the point to which I am alluding;if you omit the "," after afterwards the order takes on a whole differing meaning and as the order was verbal maybe Custer's intention was not to directly support Reno' Cheers
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