Buried Weapons and Ammo?

[Diane Merkel]

I received an inquiry that I would like to pass over to you guys for discussion. I've learned through the years not to rely on my memory of "facts" about the LBH.

The person who wrote read somewhere that the cavalry's weapons and ammo were buried by the Indians after the battle. He cited an instance when a person he knows received rifles that were supposedly from the battle from Indian friends. His questions are:

• Did the Indians bury all the weapons?
• If so, is there any Indian lore that says where they are buried?

 

Thanks in advance!
Diane

[johnnyq]

Diane,

Little Big Horn arms expert John S. DuMont wrote the 7th lost about 350 rifles, including battle damaged rifles with Reno. Not all that many when compared to the number of NAs. (maybe 1 or 2 rifles per 10 fighters. I think the "buried by" stories relate to groups surendering, not after LBH.

DuMount also says a number of period arms came to light when reservation gun laws changed, but the 7TH never used serial numbers to track arms. There is no good way to verify which arms belonged to the 7th.
If the persons his friend recived the arm from are "good people" maybe its true. No real way to know. (maybe the rifling and fireing pin marks might match a LBH spent bullet or case LOL).

I've been hanging around gun shows for 40 years - never heard any Indian lore stories about buried arms. Sporting shotguns are my interest so what do I know!

j

[Dark Cloud]

Suspect what's being referenced are the tales of Marquis and others when Two Moon passed. Supposedly Cheyenne had buried weapons just in case needed, and they were periodically retrieved and checked. Connell chats that up a bit. Don't know if true.

[quincannon]

I would tend to doubt the story.

Captured weapons were the only way the Indians could hope to eventually achieve firearms, thus firepower parity. Weapons captured at LBH would not solve the problem, but would help.

Burying the weapons, in mass, would seem an organized group decision. That does not sound like Indians, especially in light of the firearms/firepower disparity.

Saving these weapons for a rainy day, does not sound logical in the middle of a thunderstorm. If there ever was a rainy day for them, this was it.

[Yan Taylor]

Talking about buried articles what ever happened to those Spits in Burma?

Chuck either you are up late or you are an early riser.

Ian.

[fuchs]

Aug 16, 2013 2:56:00 GMT -6 quincannon said:

I would tend to doubt the story.

Captured weapons were the only way the Indians could hope to eventually achieve firearms, thus firepower parity. Weapons captured at LBH would not solve the problem, but would help.

Burying the weapons, in mass, would seem an organized group decision. That does not sound like Indians, especially in light of the firearms/firepower disparity.

Does "after the battle" necessarily mean immediately after the battle?

It would make some sense to me that before the surrenders some/many captured weapons would be hidden/cached/buried. It was made perfectly clear to the Indians that any firearms in their possesion would be seized when surrendering, so even if they could not be sure that those supposedly cached weapons could be retrieved some time in the future, they would not lose anything in that situation.
And there was the fear of revenge for the LBH, which would give an additional incentive to ditch caputered guns before the surrender.

Indians were perfectly capable to come to some "organized group decision", it would usually just take plenty of time (which they had over the winter/spring), and would not be expected to be adhered to by everyone, but by most.

The Cheyenne were fairly close together over the 1876/77 winter, and after the establishment of their reservation in the area where they had been wintering, were in a good position to retrieve any cached weapons.

IIRC, Wooden Leg remarked that he was the only one freely admitting that he participated and his gun was captured at the LBH at the surrender of his group.

[quincannon]

Diane's original post said "after the battle". Indians could have buried weapons yesterday, I suppose, and that act would be after the battle. I took the post to mean, immediately after the battle, and commented with that in mind.

I said it does not sound like what Indians were likely to do. Nowhere did I say they were not capable of doing it.

Ian: I was up very early, 2:00 AM my time early. I attended a funeral for a very close friend yesterday, and I had a little difficulty getting to and remaining asleep. I intend to remedy that within a very few minutes.

[Yan Taylor]

It’s not the 37% proof remedy by any chance?

Sorry to hear about your friend Chuck, I always value my friends the older I get and I know what it’s like when one goes (especially when they are relatively young), I have lost three good friends over the last 20 years, all between the ages of 30 to 50.

Anyway good night mate, and to the rest of you, sorry for moving off the thread.

Ian.

[johnnyq]

Iknow I'm a bit off topic but take a look at an ad I found today.



U.S. MODEL 1873 TRAPDOOR CARBINE IN THE {CUSTER/ 7TH CAVALRY} SERIAL RANGE .45-70 caliber, 22" barrel, high arch breechblock with blackened oil quenched casehardened finish. Narrow receiver, early carbine sight, long wrist stock, pin fastened front sight, and triggerguard lacking the sling swivel. The buttplate is does not have a trapdoor or provision for the cleaning rod. Single (ESA) cartouche within an oval. Serial number 39006. In very hard to find high condition with the breechblock and lock retaining much of the original finish. Excellent wood and 100% correct. In the second series of Custer range carbines with the following carbines listed in the Springfield Research records. Serial number 39253 (captured from Indians) 40173 (Springfield Armory Museum - Custer gun) 42259 (captured from Indians) 38853 (Co H 7th Cav damaged/ Dept. of Dakota shipped to SA) 37178 (7th Cav uns / Dept of Dakota shipped to SA) 37225 same as above 35487 (7th Cav same as above 35394 (shipped to FT Lincoln from Tounge River)

Price: $8950.00


A couple points:

1. The ad shows Springfield Armory records. There are records on line now, but just what they are I didn't check out. More is known now than when DuMont wrote his book.

2. This arm may be 7th cavalry issue but its in better condition than one might expect (NRA fine to very good by the photos)from a battle used arm.

3. Checking up on where groups surrendered or the the Cheyenne bundle DC & fuchs noted could lead to "big bucks". LOL

4. Two other "custer range" rifles were for sale. One for $8450.00 the other $6500.00. The questioners friend might want to check the serial numbers on his arms. LOL

Again serial# range and battle use are two different things,

j

ps yantalyor They didn't find the spits.

[bc]

Aug 16, 2013 15:58:29 GMT -6 johnnyq said:

Iknow I'm a bit off topic but take a look at an ad I found today.



U.S. MODEL 1873 TRAPDOOR CARBINE IN THE {CUSTER/ 7TH CAVALRY} SERIAL RANGE .45-70 caliber, 22" barrel, high arch breechblock with blackened oil quenched casehardened finish. Narrow receiver, early carbine sight, long wrist stock, pin fastened front sight, and triggerguard lacking the sling swivel. The buttplate is does not have a trapdoor or provision for the cleaning rod. Single (ESA) cartouche within an oval. Serial number 39006. In very hard to find high condition with the breechblock and lock retaining much of the original finish. Excellent wood and 100% correct. In the second series of Custer range carbines with the following carbines listed in the Springfield Research records. Serial number 39253 (captured from Indians) 40173 (Springfield Armory Museum - Custer gun) 42259 (captured from Indians) 38853 (Co H 7th Cav damaged/ Dept. of Dakota shipped to SA) 37178 (7th Cav uns / Dept of Dakota shipped to SA) 37225 same as above 35487 (7th Cav same as above 35394 (shipped to FT Lincoln from Tounge River)

Price: $8950.00


A couple points:

1. The ad shows Springfield Armory records. There are records on line now, but just what they are I didn't check out. More is known now than when DuMont wrote his book.

2. This arm may be 7th cavalry issue but its in better condition than one might expect (NRA fine to very good by the photos)from a battle used arm.

3. Checking up on where groups surrendered or the the Cheyenne bundle DC & fuchs noted could lead to "big bucks". LOL

4. Two other "custer range" rifles were for sale. One for $8450.00 the other $6500.00. The questioners friend might want to check the serial numbers on his arms. LOL

Again serial# range and battle use are two different things,

j

ps yantalyor They didn't find the spits.

I find it very very doubtful, like 99.9% doubtful that it is a Custer carbine and be in such good condition which is the best of both worlds for a seller (historic and in good condition).

Those rifles were case hardened and not blued. They were subject to rusting very easily and exposing them to rain, etc. for a while will start the rusting process. They were very high maintenance for the soldiers to carry around outdoors all the time. Between rust and black powder plugging a barrel after firing 5 to 10 rounds, they needed constant cleaning and oiling. I just don't see a way a Custer rifle lost on the battlefield and carried by NAs and buried or hidden for years would be in that good of condition. Not worth more than 1500 bux as far as I'm concerned.

That black powder fouling is something that shoots down these fast shooting theory guys who say the soldiers were capable of fast firing those carbines for boukou rounds. At some point they have to stop and clean their barrels and chambers.

It would not surprise me one bit that the problems some had with stuck cartridges in the breech were really stuck because of powder fouling and not necessarily because of expanded soft metal/copper and a weak rim on the cartridge.

bc

[Diane Merkel]

Thank you all for the replies. The story doesn't seem likely to me, but I'll leave it to the questioner to decide for himself.

Enjoy your weekend!

Diane

[johnnyq]

bc,

Agree

q