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Aug 5, 2013 17:01:48 GMT -6
Post by mac on Aug 5, 2013 17:01:48 GMT -6
Thanks again Fred.
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Aug 10, 2013 18:41:03 GMT -6
Post by johnnyq on Aug 10, 2013 18:41:03 GMT -6
Fred, I read the doldrums post. Please don't back away. I only check the board a couple times a month. Any points I would make are usually covered by then. This time I'll give it a go.
Question: What arms would Custers civilians carry?
Short answer-any of the listed arms. Big help huh?
Right now I'll consider civilians with custer, not Reno. Also, I didn't dig out any of the books on the field digs in the 80s; maybe later if there's interest.
Handguns
The Forehand & Wadsworth bullets (#s1,2) are possibles. The Allen patent model 42, single shot, fired a 32 cartridge and sold through Great Western Gun Works for $3.75 in 1871. The 41 caliber model 43 derringer retailed at $4.50. The model 32 six shot came in 32 caliber at a bit over $9.00. (nickle plated $1.75 extra). There's a number of related arms at low prices in 32 rimfire. All were light weight, easy to carry, self-defence arms; say for an under paid doctor or a 18-year old just starting out. F&W also made a "bulldog" type double action in 32 and 41 caliber for $12 and $13 dollars. (a bit less than Colt civilian models and just like, kinda, general Georges RIC)
The Colt percussions (#s3,4,9) were out-dated by 1876. I don't see Custers group useing them when more reliable cartridge arms were available. The conversion models, including the Smith & Wesson, (#s 8,10,11,12,20) are candidates. Considered man-stoppers in their time I can see Bouyer carrying any of them as back-up protection.
The S&W 44 (#6) was popular, (ammo was available up to 1940) , but I'd expect army connected folks to carry the 45 Scofield model. I'm not accusing them of pilfering. Old equipment was turned over to army employes.
Rifles
The 50-70 Springfields are your best bet for long arms. I see them in many of the Custer pictures. GC wrote to Remington Arms about them. Ammo was available, cheap, maybe free if you used it on buffalo.
Starr and Smith rifles are breach loading percussion arms. I'd count them out like the percussion handgun. I have seen pictures of both converted to center-fire cases.
The Evens old model (#7) could carry up to 34 cartridges. Thats personal protection plus. Do you think it might appeal to young Reed or Boston Custer? As a true candidate for use? In 1876 it cost $30.00. A more reliable model 76 Winchester firing 12 shots cost $31.00. Ranks low by me, but what do I know.
Sharps put out its first 40 caliber (#5) in 1869. Several variations were available by 1876. I could see Boston with one, but the army 50-70 is likely cheaper. The 45 sharps (#14) came out in late 1875. Not much time for a NA to get hold of one. Maybe like Windolph Boston or Reed had one.
I'd scratch the 577 Enfield (#19) in any form. The percussion models are out-dated. They strike me as NA trade arms. That said the .557 Snider was available. It was like the US trapdoor in function. First issued in 1866 using old percussion Enfield barrels. The Brits started replacing them in 1871 with the falling block 577-450 of South Africa fame. Military surplus, commerical sporters or liberated Canadian arms could place one in US civilian hands but...(maybe Cooke imported one LOL) Ammo for Sniders isn't listed in my 1870s arms catalogs.
All the above is guess work, but its good for now.
j.
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Aug 10, 2013 18:46:38 GMT -6
Post by fred on Aug 10, 2013 18:46:38 GMT -6
Johnny,
What a great post! I am printing it out and I intend to use it as best I can. I will keep you posted on my progress... a little slow right now; physical therapy on this rotator cuff business is taking its toll. Whatever I do with it, however it gets in print, I will put your name in it as well. Many thanks!!! This is exactly the kind of thing I love best about these boards.
Very best wishes, Fred.
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Aug 11, 2013 20:09:52 GMT -6
Post by johnnyq on Aug 11, 2013 20:09:52 GMT -6
Fred,
Kind reply. Thanks. I flatter pretty easy though. You could end up with more info than wanted. LOL
j
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Aug 13, 2013 9:55:26 GMT -6
Post by johnnyq on Aug 13, 2013 9:55:26 GMT -6
Fred, Just a couple more comments. Maynard 50 caliber (#5). Maynard intoduced two 50 caliber centerfire cartridges in 1873. They were ballistic copies (not interchangable) of 50 government types. They're possible candidates for civilian use. Now the good part! At least for me. Dentist Edward Manard was a heck of a guy. He obtained 23 firearms patents and held the chair of Dental Theory and Practice at the National University in Washington DC. His 1845 tape priming system was used by both the US and the Brits. The system was like the roll caps for kids cap guns. His break open breech loader dates to the early 1850s and used a brass case with percussion cap ignition. It must have worked. The 1885 Maynard catalog still marketed loaded percussion ignition 50 caliber cartridges for $5.50 per hundred and empty cases for $4.00 per hundred. The early civilian models and civil war models came in 50 caliber. If a book about Maynard and his rifles hasn't been written, it should be. Civilian use at LSH? The centerfire 1873 type...maybe Kellog or Boston, but I doubt so. My period sporting goods cattalogs don't show Maynard rifles or cartridges for sale. Apparently all purchases were direct with Maynard. I read this as not easy to get in 1876 Dakota Territory. The percussion system rifles were mostly military types. When I see civil war and percussion ignition I think NA use.
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Aug 13, 2013 10:36:12 GMT -6
Post by fred on Aug 13, 2013 10:36:12 GMT -6
Johnny,
Thanks. I am adding that post to the other. I will let you know how, where, and when I use your data.
Again, I appreciate your work, I really do. It is really good stuff.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Aug 13, 2013 11:50:32 GMT -6
Post by johnnyq on Aug 13, 2013 11:50:32 GMT -6
((((And it wasn't! I just discovered the S&W .44-caliber revolver had been issued to the entire complement of I Company, probably some time in 1871, and LT James Porter used his at the LBH... apparently. The Colt was adopted in 1873, so how many I Company men retained the S&W, I have no idea, but it is a good bet there was more than one of them at the LBH)))
OW! OW! OW! Thats me hopping up and down. Clearly shot myself in the foot! LOL I forgot about the 44 American model being issued to troops!! When I saw S&W I thought of the Schofield (even spelled it right this time). What leaves a raw spot is the info was already posted. LOL
I don't remember the use by Porter at LBH - In case I want to go to my library (a spare bedroom full of boxed books) what was the source. (please)
thanks, j
40 years of collecting and then I grumble...
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Post by fred on Aug 13, 2013 17:05:46 GMT -6
I don't remember the use by Porter at LBH - In case I want to go to my library (a spare bedroom full of boxed books) what was the source. (please) Johnny, The U. S. Army in the West, 1870-1880, Douglas C. McChristian, p. 119. No reason to fret, my boy. Your help is and has been invaluable. Best wishes, Fred.
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Aug 14, 2013 9:02:45 GMT -6
Post by johnnyq on Aug 14, 2013 9:02:45 GMT -6
Fred,
"More stuff" The F&W 42 caliber (#2) is for a falling block rifle. A A&W marked falling block in 42 caliber F&W sold for a bit under $2400 recently. Made in 1860 it looks spindly even for the time period. I did find two rimfire F&W 42s for sale. The dealer thinks they're for a F&W revolver, but I can't find a 42 revolver example. So.....Go with rifle. (there are approximately 90 gazillion cartridge types for early "Saturday night specials") yantayor notes two cases at the Reno site. Givin the cost and quality of A&W arms;sounds like mule packer use.
Colt 38 caliber (#4) On reflection, its likely one of the rimfires for conversion revolvers. We still have no idea who carried it, but does move it into the civilian use possibles.
j.
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Aug 15, 2013 13:56:02 GMT -6
Post by johnnyq on Aug 15, 2013 13:56:02 GMT -6
Fred, More stuff The Ballard 44 (#13) The centerfire ballard 44 came out in 1876. So..maybe used. Your 44 is likely a rimfire. A several thousand were made for civil war use. Several cartridge variants were made during and after the civil war. Ballards were durable and well thought of by users. Percussion conversion tools were available. Owmers could punch a hole in spent cases, insert an ordinary percussion cap, pour in a measure of powder, and seat a bullet. ? Sounds silly to me. Ballard expert John Dutcher wrote he tried the system with good results. This type of reloading cases was discussed on the board awhile back. Maybe for 44 henry rimfire or 50-70 gov't. The group as I remember though it silly too. Opps. Who knew... LOL Id go with NA use. The 44 rimfire was thought weak for elk, buffalo, or even mule deer (it is). I'd be surprised if any of our Custer folks carried one.
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Aug 16, 2013 22:18:16 GMT -6
Post by scottbono on Aug 16, 2013 22:18:16 GMT -6
Greetings folks, first timer here and a veritable Indian Wars 'addict/maniac/student'. And since that is out of the way, I wanted to ask, weren caliber bullets also found? I seem to recall both Fox and Scott mentioning that.
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Aug 17, 2013 22:59:49 GMT -6
Post by scottbono on Aug 17, 2013 22:59:49 GMT -6
Greetings folks, first timer here and a veritable Indian Wars 'addict/maniac/student'. And since that is out of the way, I wanted to ask, weren caliber bullets also found? I seem to recall both Fox and Scott mentioning that. I meant to say .56 caliber...as from the Spencer rimfire.
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Aug 19, 2013 11:40:56 GMT -6
Post by johnnyq on Aug 19, 2013 11:40:56 GMT -6
scottbono, spencer cartridges/spent cases/spent bullets were found at LBH. Thats all I remember q
Fred, my copy of The U. S. Army in the West, 1870-1880, Douglas C. McChristian, was in the morning mail. thanks, q
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Aug 19, 2013 12:10:38 GMT -6
Post by fred on Aug 19, 2013 12:10:38 GMT -6
Johnny,
Good... I hope you enjoy it. I thought it was a great book. McChristian's work is top-notch.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Sept 16, 2013 15:06:41 GMT -6
Post by johnnyq on Sept 16, 2013 15:06:41 GMT -6
Fred,
Old news by now but have you seen Glenwood Swansons' book.? He covers a number of firearms linked to cases etc found on the LBH battleground.
j
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