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Post by fred on Aug 2, 2013 9:24:28 GMT -6
Can anyone tell me which of the following were handguns? I have marked the ones I believe are pistols with a double asterisk: **
1. Forehand and Wadsworth [Ethan Allen] .32-caliber 2. Forehand and Wadsworth [Ethan Allen] .42-caliber 3. Colt .36-caliber ** 4. Colt .38-caliber ** 5. Sharps .40-caliber 6. Smith and Wesson .44-caliber ** 7. Evans Old Model .44-caliber 8. Colt conversion .44-caliber ** 9. Colt Model 1860 .44-caliber ** 10. Colt Model 1871 .44-caliber ** 11. Colt Model 1872 .44-caliber ** 12. Remington Model 1858 conversion .44-caliber 13. Ballard .44-caliber 14. Sharps .45-caliber 15. Maynard .50-caliber 16. Smith .50-caliber 17. Springfield .50-caliber 18. Starr .54-caliber 19. Enfield .577-caliber 20. .44-caliber center-fire Old Model Colt Boxer primed **
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 2, 2013 9:39:40 GMT -6
Fred, I have had a look at ones you have not marked; Forehand and Wadsworth [Ethan Allen] .32-caliber (yes) Forehand and Wadsworth [Ethan Allen] .42-caliber (?) Remington Model 1858 conversion .44-caliber (Yes) Ballard .44-caliber (maybe a Rifle) Sharps .45-caliber (maybe a Rifle) Maynard .50-caliber (maybe a Rifle) Smith .50-caliber (there is a Smith & Wesson .50 Pistol) Springfield .50-caliber linkStarr .54-caliber (there is a Starr single action .44 revolver) Enfield .577-caliber linkhope this helps. Ian.
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Post by Gatewood on Aug 2, 2013 9:48:20 GMT -6
Fred, If you go here and scroll down toward the botttom, you will find information listed on many of these. www.aotc.net/Spencer.htmFor your second item, the Forehand and Wadsworth [Ethan Allen] .42-caliber, could you have possibly meant .41-caliber" That was a revolver.
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Weapons
Aug 2, 2013 12:15:36 GMT -6
Post by fred on Aug 2, 2013 12:15:36 GMT -6
Ian and Gatewood,
Thank you very much! Greatly appreciated and I will check out the links.
Now... next question...
How likely-- in your opinions-- would it have been for any of Custer's officers-- those in the five doomed companies, and including Dr. Lord-- to have been carrying any of those 20 weapons, handguns or rifles?
Might as well get it all out right now...
And what weapons do we know, think, or believe, were carried by Mitch Boyer, Marc Kellogg, Autie Reed, and Boston Custer?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Aug 2, 2013 12:44:14 GMT -6
Post by fred on Aug 2, 2013 12:44:14 GMT -6
I have updated the list as follows. Please tell me if I am right or wrong here:
1. Forehand and Wadsworth [Ethan Allen] .32-caliber-- handgun 2. Forehand and Wadsworth [Ethan Allen] .42-caliber-- handgun 3. Colt .36-caliber-- handgun 4. Colt .38-caliber-- handgun 5. Sharps .40-caliber-- rifle 6. Smith and Wesson .44-caliber-- handgun 7. Evans Old Model .44-caliber-- rifle 8. Colt conversion .44-caliber-- handgun 9. Colt Model 1860 .44-caliber-- handgun 10. Colt Model 1871 .44-caliber-- handgun 11. Colt Model 1872 .44-caliber-- handgun 12. Remington Model 1858 conversion .44-caliber-- handgun 13. Ballard .44-caliber-- rifle 14. Sharps .45-caliber-- rifle 15. Maynard .50-caliber-- rifle 16. Smith .50-caliber-- handgun 17. Springfield .50-caliber-- rifle 18. Starr .54-caliber-- rifle 19. Enfield .577-caliber-- handgun 20. .44-caliber center-fire Old Model Colt Boxer primed-- handgun
Thanks for all your help.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Aug 2, 2013 12:57:31 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 2, 2013 12:57:31 GMT -6
Fred, shell cases from a .32 calibre Forehand and Wadsworth were found on the battlefield. I will have a good look round for you tomorrow my friend and it’s good to see you back.
Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 3, 2013 5:39:44 GMT -6
Fred, this is the best I can find mate; Forehand and Wadsworth [Ethan Allen] .32-caliber—handgun linkForehand and Wadsworth [Ethan Allen] .42-caliber (RIFLE) ‘’Two shell cases found on the Reno-Benteen defense site’’. Colt .36-caliber—handgun (Colt M1851 Navy Revolver) Colt .38-caliber—handgun (Colt M1874 Revolver) Smith and Wesson .44-caliber—handgun linkColt conversion .44-caliber—handgun (Colt M1858 Revolver) Colt Model 1860 .44-caliber—handgun www.imfdb.org/wiki/Colt_1860_Army Colt Model 1871 .44-caliber-- handgun Colt Model 1872 .44-caliber—handgun linkRemington Model 1858 conversion .44-caliber—handgun linkSmith .50-caliber—handgun (RIFLE) [a href=" reviews.cabelas.com/8815/217930/pietta-smith-50-caliber-carbine-cavalry-model-reviews/reviews.htm "]link[/a] Enfield .577-caliber—handgun (RIFLE) link.44-caliber center-fire Old Model Colt Boxer primed—handgun forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=123555.10;wap2 Sharps .40-caliber—rifle linkEvans Old Model .44-caliber—rifle linkBallard .44-caliber—rifle cap-n-ball.com/ballard.htm Sharps .45-caliber—rifle (Sharps M.1874 .45 Rifle) Maynard .50-caliber—rifle (Maynard M.1865 .50 Rifle & Carbine) Springfield .50-caliber—rifle (Springfield M.1866 .50 Carbine) Starr .54-caliber—rifle linkIan.
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Post by fred on Aug 3, 2013 7:46:43 GMT -6
Ian,
Thanks. I have made the adjustments. That Enfield, however, was also made as a pistol; looked like an old flintlock, but I would think certainly the "rifle/carbine" version was the one used at the LBH.
Now... no one so far has ventured to answer my other question: is it likely-- or not-- that any of these weapons (handguns or otherwise) would have been carried by any of the officers?
Mac,
Morris Farrar seemed to me to be a really good man, not like the other C Company stragglers, especially the two malingerers, Fitzgerald and Brennan (who were absolute bums).
Farrar was a Civil War veteran and was probably the first man to drop behind. There are indications he was having problems with his horse as far back as the move up the Rosebud and it is likely his horse fell behind early on Reno Creek. Also, the other four-- Fitzgerald, Brennan, Peter Thompson, and James Watson-- were all in the same set-of-fours. Kind of coincidental, don't you think? You should be proud of him: to my way of thinking, it is the Morris Farrars of this world that have made the United States what it is... the immigrant-class coming here to make a better life for themselves and their families. Guys like me have a tendency to take what we have here for granted; men like Farrar understand what they are getting and make the most of it. That's is why the U. S. is such a marvelous country.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Aug 3, 2013 17:18:20 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 3, 2013 17:18:20 GMT -6
Yes Fred I know the Enfield Pistol is also a flintlock because it is in one of the links in my first post.
Is it prudent to say that the Officers would have been the men who fired the least, I am not being disrespectful here but when an Officer is trying to keep his Company in order the last thing he would be doing is firing his sidearm (if he was in Custer’s Battalion and he lived long enough for the fighting to get close and personal he may be lucky enough to let loose his full chamber of six rounds), so I would say that most of the lead fired by the 7th that day would be from the Troopers Sharps Carbines and Colt Pistols. So all the other different calibres fired by weapons such as Evans, Henrys, Winchesters, Remington’s, Ballard’s, Maynard’s, Starrs, Spencer’s, Enfield’s and Forehand & Walworth’s would probably have come from the Indians. But then we have the question over how many Sharps and Colts the Indians had after they finished of Custer, and more importantly how much ammo.
Ian.
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Aug 3, 2013 23:40:17 GMT -6
Post by fuchs on Aug 3, 2013 23:40:17 GMT -6
But then we have the question over how many Sharps and Colts the Indians had after they finished of Custer, and more importantly how much ammo. About half of the bullets dug up on the Reno/Benteen defense site were fired from captured Army cartridges. So at least the amount of ammo that the Indians felt they could afford to expend in a not-so-critical fight was substantially increased.
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Post by mac on Aug 4, 2013 4:06:23 GMT -6
Fred Thanks for the information! My words about pride were facetious. I am actually thrilled we had someone there as we have a bit of a joke about Aussies being everywhere. Interestingly a branch of my family are Farrar. Could we be related?...genealogical work underway. Australia and the US are very similar in that both are immigrant nations. I raelly like the richness of that. Hope all is well with your shoulder. Cheers
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Aug 4, 2013 10:02:08 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 4, 2013 10:02:08 GMT -6
Mac, you maybe related to Andrew Farrar who guested over here for Wigan?
Ian.
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Aug 4, 2013 16:56:55 GMT -6
Post by mac on Aug 4, 2013 16:56:55 GMT -6
My wife is the genealogist so I will turn her loose on this quest. I suspect his athletic talents don't relate to my genes!
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Aug 4, 2013 18:52:56 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 4, 2013 18:52:56 GMT -6
Fred I would go with the .577 Enfield as a rifle or carbine. i believe it was used during the CW. Also number 20 seems to combine the weapon and ammunition. Box primed would indicate ammunition to me.
Steve
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Post by fred on Aug 5, 2013 7:55:41 GMT -6
Steve,
Thanks. I carry the Enfield as a rifle now. I agree as well about # 20, though its importance to me lies only in "who" would have carried it and "what" was its impact in the battle. The answer is probably irrelevant in either case.
Bandboxtroop made an extremely interesting comment on the other board regarding the weapon Yates carried. If that was the only example found of that weapon, then they discovered a cartridge Yates must have fired. Interesting stuff.
(And it wasn't! I just discovered the S&W .44-caliber revolver had been issued to the entire complement of I Company, probably some time in 1871, and LT James Porter used his at the LBH... apparently. The Colt was adopted in 1873, so how many I Company men retained the S&W, I have no idea, but it is a good bet there was more than one of them at the LBH.)
And mac,
I wasn't being facetious. To me, Farrar appears to have been a helluva good man, epitomizing what I believe to be the typical Aussie spirit. You should be proud; you come from countrymen of good blood.
Best wishes, Fred.
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