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Post by Yan Taylor on May 16, 2013 9:17:37 GMT -6
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Post by fuchs on May 16, 2013 9:24:14 GMT -6
Hi Mike, the Spencer Repeater along with the two Henry’s would have given the Cavalry an advantage over the slow firing Muzzle Loaders used by the Infantry, but 27 men against 1000 (Fuchs claims a lesser total) is still a one sided affaire. I'm nowhere near sure about that, I just advice caution, based on numerous other examples of mismatch between "accepted number" and likely number concluded from population analysis, lodge counts and Indian sources. In any case, 400, 1000 or 3000 warriors wouldn't have made much of a difference against 27. Did they have those replacement magazines boxes with them? If not, they would have had around 200 shots, after which they would have been down to to manual loading, just as Custer's men. I dimly remember a story that the weapons were originally the standard issue equipment of the (infantry) band, and were just taken along by the cavalry detachment for the occasion. Sounds unlikely, is this founded anywhere in reality? I wasn't aware that the story included him actually killing anyone with his bugle. What's entirely plausible is that he bravely faced certain death even with nothing more than his bugle to defend himself, and that this earned him a posthumous "preferential treatment".
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 16, 2013 9:33:29 GMT -6
Hello Fuchs, yes I should have worded it a little different.
Apparently the Trumpeter was the smallest man in the detachment, and they probably thought that he used his Trumpet as a weapon because it was found next to him all bent and dinted.
A word of caution my friend, you may want to use the term Trumpeter instead of Bugler.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on May 16, 2013 9:34:49 GMT -6
Ian: The southwest corner is where it was mounted. It is possible that this gun was turned around to face the interior of the plaza, but the platform it was mounted on was fairly small, and it was a very big gun, and I believe it would have been difficult. The platform itself was the ruins of an old shop, filled with dirt, and a ramp built up to it. . There is even some question as to if the 18lbs gun was even there on the morning of the battle. It had been dismounted by Mexican fire earlier in the siege. I cannot say for certain if it was repaired or not. Therefore the possibility exists that a smaller gun was mounted in its place, which would have been easier to move, and raises the likelihood that this gun could be used against those Texians that were in the buildings. That plaza was filled with both Mexicans and Texians at one point, until the Texians got into the buildings. It would seem logical them that the field guns would be used not to chase them, but to root them out.
See if you can find a plan of the Alamo in 1836 superimposed over a street map of modern San Antonio. I think it would help you visualize all this.
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Post by Mike Powell on May 16, 2013 9:42:57 GMT -6
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 16, 2013 9:53:35 GMT -6
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Post by fuchs on May 16, 2013 10:41:39 GMT -6
Great stuff! (There's a second account linked there, too) Two first hand accounts with a lot of the gory details, and not much, if any, heroics fluff, lending much credibility to them. Getting the context into those "few man killed by bullets". Likely because there wasn't much time to exchange shots with mostly slow-loading muzzle-loaders before the infantry was cut down. So the suggestion that the Indians had very few firearms at this point in time might be unfounded. If the information were correct that mostly Minneconjou were engaged, even if "Minneconjou" ment Minneconjou + Sans Arc in reality, this would support a more moderate warrior number.
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Post by quincannon on May 16, 2013 11:44:48 GMT -6
Ian: What Ivey's drawing does not show, and most folks overlook is that the southwest corner was located at the top of a slope, that leads down to the river. Judging from the current steps down to the Paseo del Rio the slope was quite steep, and as such elevated the cannon mounted there to a point well above the town on the other side of the river. It was from that point the Texians put one round into the building that Santa Anna was using as a headquarters. As the west wall moves from the southwest to northwest corner of the plaza the land to the west between the plaza and the river levels off considerably. The river forms a loop just opposite the southern end of the west wall, and that is the location of the famous River Walk or Paseo del Rio.
Another thing that should be added, for those who have never been to San Antonio or the Alamo, particularly those in Europe. The Alamo today is only a fraction of what it was in 1836. Then it was outside town, and a small community of its own. It had been abandoned as a mission, when San Fernando church (still standing in much modified form) was built in town. The chapel was never finished. It was used for various purposes including a military garrison from time to time. Outside the south plaza wall a community of sorts had grown up around another plaza, the Plaza de Valero (still there today). Most folks picture the Alamo as being outside town today. In reality it is surrounded by four good sized hotels and the city post office including the Menger which is probably the most famous in Texas. It was the bar of the Menger that it is said TR recruited many of the Rough Riders. Don't know how true that is. What is nice is that the park behind the chapel, the scene of much of the outside the wall fighting is still there, and very nice to the point where my daughter tells me it is "the place" to have wedding pictures taken. Most of the Texas History places in San Antonio are very well marked, and most are within walking distance of the Alamo.
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Post by Gatewood on May 16, 2013 12:01:04 GMT -6
... apparently he was the only victim who was not disfigured and was said to have fought bravely, killing several Indians with his bugle before falling. The Warriors wrapped his body in a buffalo hide
There are any number of stories like this where the Indians supposedly didn't mutilate someone out of respect for his bravery. That has never made logical sense to me. The reason that they mutilated their enemies in the first place was in order to make it harder for their enemies to fight them again in the after life, so it seems to me that the ones that were the staunches opponents and put up the toughest fight would be the very ones that they would want to mutilate the most, so that they wouldn't have to deal with them again.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 17, 2013 7:09:30 GMT -6
Hi Chuck, I remember you telling me (a few years ago now) that there is a place nearby the Alamo that serves the best Chili in Texas.
True Gatewood very true, the only reference I can find on line to this Trumpeter story is this;
‘’In the Fetterman Massacre, the only victim who was not disfigured was the detachment's bugler, who was said to have fought bravely, killing several Indians with his bugle before falling. They wrapped his body in a buffalo hide’’.
This was on a different forum (not Bill Keogh’s I might add), I am sure mine came from a book, which I may still have, I will see.
Ian.
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Post by Mike Powell on May 17, 2013 10:02:33 GMT -6
Bugler Metzger's story is included in J. W. Vaughn's Indian Fights New Facts on Seven Encounters. Vaughn tells that Metzger was found nearby Wheatley and Fisher "apparently where the command first fell back from the valley,..." He also provides this quote from Elmo Scott Watson in "The Bravery of Our Bugler Is Much Spoken Of," Old Travois Tales, Vol. I, No. 6 (1941).
"The bravery of our bugler is much spoken of, he having killed several Indians by beating them over the head with his bugle...The Indians mutilated every body in Fetterman's with the exception of the bugler who fought so courageously that his remains were left untouched but covered with a buffalo robe."
Truth or sea-story?
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Post by fuchs on May 17, 2013 11:33:15 GMT -6
Uh, oh. I will take a first hand account like that yesterday over such fluff any day. And I might be wrong, but wasn't there a "report" of either wagon box or hayfield fight in that Vaughn book that sounds more like Rorke's Drift than Plains Indian warfare? Perhaps there's some kernel of truth, but the smallest guy of the detachment bashing in heads of warriors of "the tallest people in the world" with a bugle against all sorts of dedicated close combat weaponry, no sorry
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Post by benteen on May 17, 2013 15:27:43 GMT -6
Mike, I dont know, but what the heck lets say its the truth, why not let the kid be a hero, whats the harm. he did give his life for his country. Be Well Dan
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Post by Gatewood on May 17, 2013 15:53:30 GMT -6
Dan,
As you say, why not let the kid be a hero, and he may truly have been. On the other hand, assuming that he did put up a frantic, no holds bared fight to the death, it brings to mind comments made by General Wolseley in regard to the Victoria Crosses awarded for bravery to some of the defenders of Rorke's Drift. He took exception to it and said that bravery really had nothing to do with it, as they were like so many trapped rats that had no choice but to fight for all they were worth for survival. I'm not saying that I agree with him, but I do see an element of logic in it, and the same can probably be said of this and many other "last stands" throughout the Indian wars and history.
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Post by benteen on May 17, 2013 16:42:21 GMT -6
Dan, As you say, why not let the kid be a hero, and he may truly have been. On the other hand, assuming that he did put up a frantic, no holds bared fight to the death, it brings to mind comments made by General Wolseley in regard to the Victoria Crosses awarded for bravery to some of the defenders of Rorke's Drift. He took exception to it and said that bravery really had nothing to do with it, as they were like so many trapped rats that had no choice but to fight for all they were worth for survival. I'm not saying that I agree with him, but I do see an element of logic in it, and the same can probably be said of this and many other "last stands" throughout the Indian wars and history. Gatewood, Well said, good point. Unfortunatly I believe it is safe to say that in all wars people are awarded medals they didnt deserve, and others that deserved them werent awarded them. But I digress. As to our little bugler, I think it is safe to say that you agree with me and we will let him have his day in the sun. Be Well Dan
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