Springfield Carbine

[Yan Taylor]

Hi, I need some data for the Springfield 1873 Carbine, it’s just for my own personal use as I collect various data for all types of weapons (sad but true).

As you can see there are a few points I am not sure about.

1873 Trapdoor Carbine.
Year: 1873
Origin & Make: American/Springfield
Type: Cavalry Carbine
Calibre: .45-55 *
Cartridge Weight: ? **
System: Hinged Breechblock
Length: 51in / 1.317.6mm
Barrel: 22in / 560mm
Gun Weight: 7 lbs. / 3.175 kg
Sights: Bead Front / Adjustable Rear
Muzzle Velocity: 1345 Ft/s /410 m/s ***
Magazine Capacity: Single Shot
Rate of Fire: 10 rpm
Effective Range: 300 Yards / 275m
Maximum Range: 600 yards / 548m
Total Issued: 700.000 ****

• * did it also fire the .45-70 Round
• ** What was the total cartridge weight
• *** was this velocity for the Infantry version or carbine
• **** this total was for all models (Rifle & Carbine), what was just the Carbine total

Thanks for any input.

Ian.

[Mike Powell]

It would fire both the .45-55 carbine and the .45-70 rifle cartridges. The cartridge cases and the bullets of 405 grains were identical in both loads, which differed only in the weight of the powder, 55 grains and 70 grains.

The carbine cartridge total weight was about 611 grains, approximately 1.4 ounces or nearly 40 grams.

In a test conducted at Springfield Armory on August 11, 1876, the mean velocity was 1,364 feet per second for the .45-70 load and 1,167 feet per second for the .45-55 load, when each was fired from a carbine. In that same test, the 55 grain carbine cartridge penetrated slightly over 10 inches of white pine at 100 yards.

Total carbine production from 1873 through 1889 was 59,909.

Source: The Springfield Carbine on the Western Frontier by Kenneth M. Hammer

[bc]

I've been looking for an 1873 trapdoor carbine myself if anyone knows of one around. I know about what the going price is for those.

Figuring 1.4 ounces per cartridge comes out to 175 pounds for 2000 rounds plus the weight of the 2 wood boxes maybe another 5 or 10 pounds. I believe they were packed in 1000 round boxes and each ammo mule carried 2 boxes. That would be about the right weight per pack mule. The pack train carried 24,000 extra rounds which would have been put on 12 mules.

59,909 issued sounds about right. There are a lot of the long barreled infantry rifles around that I've seen between $500 to $800 and maybe one in better condition with an older number bringing more than a grand and better.

bc

[Yan Taylor]

Thanks guys, that is all the info I need.

Ian.

[Mike Powell]

BC,

I don't follow that market but I would guess a genuine carbine comes pretty dear. If you're looking for something to shoot, Pedersoli and I'm sure some other firms offer carbine reproductions. I bought one about a decade ago and have had quite a lot of fun with it.

Some other info from The Springfield Carbine on the Western Frontier :

(referring to the carbine cartridge) "A box of 1,000 rounds weighed roughly 90 pounds..." (Think that works out to about 40 ounces for all the packing, which sounds a little flimsy.)

"In 1916 the War Department offered 32,000 serviceable Springfield carbines for 75 cents each. Carbine ammunition was offered at $12 per 1,000 rounds."

[Yan Taylor]

The Springfield 1873 is now officially the oldest weapon in my data base, it has taken over from the French De Bange 120mm Howitzer, this weapon was introduced in 1878 and was still in use in WW2, the French army still had 600, and the Romanians had a few, but the main user was Finland they had 72 of these obsolete Howitzers and used them up to 1944.

Matériel de 120 mle. 1878 de Bange (French term) didn’t have a recoil system, and no traverse either, once you fired the gun you had to pull it back into place before you fired again, in fact if you can find a picture of the thing you would see that it would not look out of place alongside the Springfield 1973.

Mike; I tried to contact Hunkpapa to ask him about the book he was working on, and his son wrote back to say his Father was in hospital, he also said that he would be returning home soon, but his son had no idea about any book his Father was working on, he will relay my message to his Father and I hope Hunk contacts me in the future, if he does I will contact you.

Before I go, I remember having a conversation with Chuck concerning the Browning Automatic Rifle, here is some data on the Belgian version.

www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=658

Ian.

[Yan Taylor]

I know there are a few ex-marines on this board, and I have come across a couple of weapons used by the marines in the early part of WW2;

You are all familiar with the Thompson S.M.G. M1 Rifle and the B.A.R. but did any of you use any of these ?

Reising M50
Year: 1941
Origin & Make: American/Reising
Type: Sub-machine Gun
Calibre: .45 ACP
Cartridge Weight: 15.16g
System: Delayed Blowback
Length: 959mm
Barrel: 279mm
Gun Weight: 3.1 kg
Sights: Front Blade & Rear Notch
Feed: 20 Round Box
Rate of Fire: 550 rpm
Muzzle Velocity: 280 m/s
Maximum Range: 100m
Total Issued: 100.000

This S.M.G. was supposed to be an alternative to the Thompson, but it never really took off.
There are two more which the marines used to defend Henderson Field; one was an Automatic Rifle and the other a Light Machine Gun;

Johnson M.1941
Year: 1939
Origin & Make: America/Johnson
Type: Automatic Rifle
Calibre: .30-06 Springfield (7.62x63mm)
Cartridge Weight: 26.96g
System: Recoil
Length: 1.165mm
Barrel: 560mm
Gun Weight: 6.48 kg
Sights: Adjustable Iron Sights
Muzzle Velocity: 866 m/s
Magazine Capacity: 10 Rounds
Rate of Fire: 10 rpm
Maximum Range: 3.450m
Total Issued: 20.000

Johnson M.1941
Year: 1940
Origin & Make: American/Johnson
Type: Light Machine Gun
Calibre: .30-06 Springfield (7.62x63mm)
Cartridge Weight: 26.96g
System: Recoil
Length: 1.100mm
Barrel: 560mm
Gun Weight: 5.9 kg
Mount: Bi-Pod
Sights: Folding Rear Sight & Front Blade
Feed: 20 Round Magazine
Rate of Fire: 600 rpm
Barrel Cooling: Air
Muzzle Velocity: 866 m/s
Maximum Range: 3.450m
Crew: 2
Total Issued: 9.500

These two weapons were supposed to go to the Dutch East Indies (KNIL Forces), but the Japanese took the place before they got shipped out, apparently the marines were short on M1 Rifles and B.A.R.s so they pressed these weapons into service.

Ian.

[Mike Powell]

I have never fired or handled a Reising or Johnson rifle or LMG. I've gone back through my books and reread what I have on the Reising, which is very little but does include anecdotes from men who were familiar with the weapon. Here's what I learned about the Reising:

It was disastrously prone to jamming by failure to feed and chamber. This was principally due to an insufficiently powerful recoil spring. The problem could be greatly reduced by fitting an additional recoil spring taken from spares or from another gun. This practice was followed by members of the 1st Marine Parachute Battalion after their combat baptism on Gavutu in August 1942, though only a limited number, perhaps 10%, of their Reisings received the additional spring. Battalion Of The Damned - The 1st Marine Paratroopers At Gavutu And Bloody Ridge, 1942 , James F. Christ (despite the lurid title, an excellent example of the collected reminiscences genre). The Reising was issued to that unit on a scale of one in four, so the weapon is frequently cited in the book.

Ignoring reliability, in comparison to the Thompson, the Reising was lighter and more accurate. The latter by virtue of being able to select semi-automatic fire whereupon the Reising fired from a closed bolt. In full automatic fire the Reising was more controllable against muzzle rise than the Thompson. Its lighter weight was more than offset by the higher position of the butt relative to the axis of the barrel. Shots Fired In Anger, Lt. Col. John George, a lengthy and excellent account by a pre-war rifleman who served on Guadalcanal and in Burma

Additionally, both books mention the finish of the weapons' metal not being up to snuff at rust resistance.

[quincannon]

If memory serves both the Reising and Johnson were also used by the 1st Special Service Force. I am quite sure about the Johnson, not nearly as sure about the Reising.

[Gatewood]

The Johnson was, by most accounts, a competent weapon and, in some ways, superior to the Garand. However, the Garand was a little further along in the development/deployment cycle and the U.S. was already heavily invested in its production, so there was no real incentive for adopting the Johnson as a second battle rifle. However, Garand production fell short of the needs of the rapidly expanding pre/early war military, and the marines, as ususal, were at the bottom of the food chain and had to make do with something else, so they resorted to limited deployment of the Johnson.

Likewise, production of the Thompson was insufficient for the needs of all the armed forces, largely because it was highly machined and time consuming to produce. That of course also made it expensive, so the military started looking around for something else that was more rapidly and less expensively produced. The Reising seemed to fit the bill, so a considerable number were planned - primarily for the marines. It was actually superior to the Thompson in accuracy, weight, and some other aspects, but it had been designed and intended for police use, and it was soon discovered that it was unsuitable for the rigors of combat, particulalry in the jungles of the Pacific with the moisture, mud, salt water, and what not. It was subsequently somewhat "hardened" to mitigate those factores, but by that time it had developed an unfavorable reputation, and the Marines didn't really want it any longer.

[Yan Taylor]

Excellent stuff guy’s, here is a couple more for you (I was going to add the M3 S.M.G. but you fellows would know all about the ‘’Grease Gun’’.

This M42 was another weapon designed for the U.S. Government, but ended up being bought by the Dutch forces in the East Indies (KNIL), although some were used in clandestine operations in Europe.

United defense M42
Year: 1942
Origin & Make: America/United Defense Supply Corp
Type: Sub-machine Gun
Calibre: 9mm (9x19mm Parabellum)
Cartridge Weight: 115g
System: Blowback
Length: 820mm
Barrel: 279mm
Gun Weight: 4.1 kg
Sights: Fixed Post & Adjustable Rear
Feed: 20 Round Box
Rate of Fire: 700 rpm
Muzzle Velocity: 335 m/s
Maximum Range: 100m
Total Issued: 15.000

The M2 was only produced in small numbers so I don’t think any of you would have come across a copy.

Hyde-Inland M2
Year: 1942
Origin & Make: America/Marlin
Type: Sub-machine Gun
Calibre: .45 APC
Cartridge Weight: 15.16g
System: Blowback
Length: 813mm
Barrel: 305mm
Gun Weight: 4.19 kg
Sights: Front Blade & Fixed Rear Aperture
Feed: 20 or 30 Round Box
Rate of Fire: 525 rpm
Muzzle Velocity: 292 m/s
Maximum Range: 100m
Total Issued: 500

Ian.

[Gatewood]

Ian,

A couple of comments in regard to the various weapons that you have posted. As you have noted, most were produced in small numbers and saw limited deployment and use. This was primarily as a result of various shortcomings that they exhibited, but that was not so much due to fundamental flaws as it was to the fact that, due to the circumstances of the times, they were rushed into production prior to being adequately tested and problems identified. Most of those were fairly easily corrected by the redesign of a spring here or a lever there, but, by the time that occurred, the military had largely moved on to something else (As an aside, I had an uncle who went through the European war as a small weapons repairman. He and his team worked out of a caravan of trucks equipped with portable machine shops, tools, spare parts, etc., and they repaired broken or malfunctioning infantry weapons, including machine guns and mortars. That is something that most people probably don't think of when considering the things necessary for keeping an army running, but it was a very essential element.) Anyway, back to the weapons - some of them were quite innovative and might have been quite good if they had had the opportunity to be fully developed. A good example is the Reising. The German Sturmgewehr 44 is generally regarded as being the first assault rifle, but that was really what the Reising was, slightly earlier, in the M60 and M65 variations. Their only difference from the M50 was that they were chambered for the .30 carbine round rather than the .45 pistol round, but that would alter their classification from sub-machine run to rifle, and, since they could be fired in automatic, that would make them "assault rifles" under the later definition of the term. So, if the development and teething problems had been only slightly earlier, the U.S. might have entered into WW2 with a fairly adequate assault rifle in its inventory.

[Yan Taylor]

Good Morning Gatewood, I agree that the elements in the rear did do a good job in keeping the Army moving, every U.S. Infantry Division had a ‘’Ordnance Light Maintenance Company’’ and this was placed under a ‘’Special Troops Headquarters’’ for administrative purposes, without these Troops (or specialists) any Division could not function, so my hat goes off to them.

Going back to Assault Rifles, the French developed an Automatic Rifle before WW1, it was called the mle 1910, here is the data I have in my files;

Fusil "Automatique" Modèle 1910 A6.
Year: 1916
Origin & Make: French/Meunier
Type: Semi-Automatic Rifle
Calibre: 7mm (7x59mm)
Cartridge Weight:
System: Gas
Length: 1.295mm
Barrel: 715mm
Gun Weight: 4.185 kg
Sights: Front Blade & Rear Leaf
Muzzle Velocity: 800 m/s
Magazine Capacity: 6 Rounds
Rate of Fire: 35 rpm
Maximum Range: 1.200m
Total Issued: 6000
Notes: Only produced in small number, this Semi-Automatic Rifle was issued to French Troops during WW1, but due to its Calibre (7mm) caused supply problems and it was withdrawn from use to be replaced by the R.C.A. mle 1917.

So really the French could have been the first country to issue an Automatic Rifle to its Troops.

Ian.

[Mike Powell]

Reisings are confusing to me. I've done some reading on the M50 and M55, both clearly chambered for the .45 ACP round. The M60 and M65 mentioned above are less clear, especially the M60 which may have been a long-barreled version, perhaps only semi-auto, perhaps chambered for the .45 ACP also. The M65 was a .22 calibre semi-auto training and sport rifle.

H&R created a prototype, in semi-auto only, adapted from the Reising M50, in .30 M1 Carbine, for the 1941 Carbine Trials which resulted in selection of Winchester's M1 carbine, There's also something called a Reising Spitfire lurking out there which I believe was in .30 M1 Carbine though I can find little info on this weapon.

I understand the argument that a selective fire Reising in .30 M1 Carbine could be considered an early assault rifle, just as could an M2 carbine, which was introduced in 1944. But, I don't accept the argument.

An "assault rifle" in my opinion would have these main characteristics:

Capable of full automatic fire.

Reasonably controllable in full automatic.

Weight reasonable for easy carry.

Power sufficient to serve as the primary infantry weapon.

These characteristics have only been achieved in weapons featuring an intermediate cartridge between that of pistols and main battle rifles, principally the 7.92 mm Kurz, 7.62X39 mm, 5.56 mm and the 5.45X39 mm.

The Stg 44 used the 7.92 Kurz, 125 grain bullet, muzzle velocity 2,250 fps, muzzle energy 1,408 foot pounds. The .30 M1 Carbine round pushes a 110 grain bullet out the muzzle at 1,990 fps with 967 foot pounds of energy. The .30 M1 Carbine round was designed for a carbine that was not intended nor ever served as the primary infantry weapon of any army. The .30 M1 Carbine is intermediate, but a ways too far on the low end.

These opinions of mine, of course, have little to do with the meaning of "assault rifle" as discussed among the political class in the US today.

[Yan Taylor]

Hi Mike, you probably hit the same sites I did.

Reising Model 60 intended for use as a Law Enforcement, Coast Guard and Merchant Marine weapon. It had an 18.5 inch (469mm) barrel and fired .30 (7.62x33mm) ammo.

M65 fired the .22LR (5.6x15R) round and was mainly used for training.

The M.50 & M.55 also differed in weight (M.50 31 kg (6.83 lb.) & M.55 2.8 kg (6.2 lb.).

In 1940 the Marines wanted to issue 4.200 Reising’s to each Division (500 per Regiment) because they considered the Thompson too heavy for jungle patrols.

I know the difference between Assault Rifle and Automatic Rifle are confusing, but every time I read about the B.A.R. it says that it was not classed as a standard L.M.G., I find this odd because if you look at the stats below (a list of all the Standard L.M.G.s in service from 1939-42) the B.A.R. dose not look out of place as a L.M.G.

Browning Automatic Rifle.
Country: U.S.A.
Weight: 8.8 kg (19.4 lbs.)
Feed: 20 Round Box Magazine
Rate of Fire: 500 rpm (120 rpm Practical)

Bren.
Country: Britain (from a Czech Design)
Weight: 10.15 kg (22.38 lbs.)
Feed: 30 Round Box Magazine
Rate of Fire: 500 rpm (120 rpm Practical)

Chatellerault mle 1929.
Country: France
Weight: 9.24 kg (20.37 lbs.)
Feed: 25 Round Box Magazine
Rate of Fire: 600 rpm (120 rpm Practical)

Breda Modello 1930.
Country: Italy
Weight: 10.6 kg (23.37 lbs.)
Feed: 20 Round Strips
Rate of Fire: 475 rpm (180 rpm Practical)

Nambu Type 96.
Country: Japan
Weight: 11.2 kg (24.69 lbs.)
Feed: 30 Round Box Magazine
Rate of Fire: 550 rpm (230 rpm Practical)

Madsen M.24.
Country: Denmark
Weight: 9.07 kg (20 lbs.)
Feed: 25, 30 & 40 Round Box Magazines
Rate of Fire: 450 rpm (200 rpm Practical)

Degtyarev DP.
Country: Russia
Weight: 11.3 kg (24.91 lbs.)
Feed: 47 Round Drum Magazine
Rate of Fire: 550 rpm (100 rpm Practical)

Maschinengewehr 34.
Country: Germany
Weight: 21.1 kg (46.52 lbs.)
Feed: 50 Round Belt (also used 50 & 75 Round Drum Magazine)
Rate of Fire: 900 rpm (250 rpm Practical)

Trust the Germans to come up with a faster firing weapon, but it came at a cost; it was almost double the weight of all the others. The Panzer Grenadiers issued two of these (and the MG.42) to each Squad, but the standard Infantry Squad had only one.

A Germans Infantry Platoon (at full strength) had four Squads (4 x L.M.G.s).
A Panzer Infantry Platoon contained three Squads (6 x L.M.G.s).

Ian.