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Post by dre859 on Apr 12, 2019 7:50:40 GMT -6
The arrows to be compared with modern-day mortar rounds being lobbed-in. The psychological damage of hearing mortars being walked-in to your position is a precursor to the physical damage when they do reach your position. When your position is static, such as it was for the soldiers on the ridge, the feeling of helplessness easily gets overwhelming. Depending on the discipline of line-of-sight and fields-of-fire when you see that discipline does you no good, well, it hurts just to imagine the overwhelming feeling of helplessness those soldiers felt. When you're surrounded by an enemy who's hard to see, substantially outnumbered, taking both direct and indirect fire, and you've lost your mobility, it's kinda hard to generate options that are going to lead to happy outcomes. What struck me the first time I was on the battlefield was the sheer terror that so many of those troopers must have felt. They had to know, without a doubt, that they were standing on the ground where they would die.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 13, 2019 6:17:07 GMT -6
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Post by bluedog on Apr 13, 2019 9:13:25 GMT -6
Good-night Chesty, wherever you are..........
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Post by montrose on Apr 13, 2019 9:59:06 GMT -6
The arrows to be compared with modern-day mortar rounds being lobbed-in. The psychological damage of hearing mortars being walked-in to your position is a precursor to the physical damage when they do reach your position. When your position is static, such as it was for the soldiers on the ridge, the feeling of helplessness easily gets overwhelming. Depending on the discipline of line-of-sight and fields-of-fire when you see that discipline does you no good, well, it hurts just to imagine the overwhelming feeling of helplessness those soldiers felt. When you're surrounded by an enemy who's hard to see, substantially outnumbered, taking both direct and indirect fire, and you've lost your mobility, it's kinda hard to generate options that are going to lead to happy outcomes. What struck me the first time I was on the battlefield was the sheer terror that so many of those troopers must have felt. They had to know, without a doubt, that they were standing on the ground where they would die. www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8qJdfSKhpI&t=51sOr you settle down, get mean, and make the buggers pay. Spirit of Cameron. Note that the five companies with LTC Custer died in five very distinct company clusters. The enlisted folks stayed together under positive NCO and company leadership. The issue is the five companies all died out of supporting distance of any other company. This shows a major failing at field grade officer and company commander level. The soldiers in the 7th were sound and died doing their duty. The officers showed gross incompetence, again and again and again. This was a winnable fight for US.
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Post by montrose on Apr 13, 2019 10:00:35 GMT -6
Good-night Chesty, wherever you are.......... If Chesty is in hell, the devil is suppressed by effective fire and trying to stop a breakthrough.
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Post by bluedog on Apr 13, 2019 18:39:46 GMT -6
Well, he isn't since he's merely sleeping waiting for one of the two resurrections to come. But, that's a subject for another place, I guess. I'm sure that's what's gonna be told to me, anyway. And, when Hell does come into existence, Satan won't be in charge of anything.
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Post by herosrest on Apr 14, 2019 6:17:58 GMT -6
When you're surrounded by an enemy who's hard to see, substantially outnumbered, taking both direct and indirect fire, and you've lost your mobility, it's kinda hard to generate options that are going to lead to happy outcomes. What struck me the first time I was on the battlefield was the sheer terror that so many of those troopers must have felt. They had to know, without a doubt, that they were standing on the ground where they would die. www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8qJdfSKhpI&t=51sOr you settle down, get mean, and make the buggers pay. Spirit of Cameron. Note that the five companies with LTC Custer died in five very distinct company clusters. The enlisted folks stayed together under positive NCO and company leadership. The issue is the five companies all died out of supporting distance of any other company. This shows a major failing at field grade officer and company commander level. The soldiers in the 7th were sound and died doing their duty. The officers showed gross incompetence, again and again and again. This was a winnable fight for US. I agree that there was little support apparent from the body positions but did all 5 clusters succumb in succession or united. ie why fight without available support? Applies equally to units idle behind Weir's Peak. > <
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Post by bluedog on Apr 14, 2019 7:49:41 GMT -6
There's warrior testimony that mentions the concern the warriors had that Reno and Benteen's troops would close and trap 'em between Calhoun and Reno when the warriors were infiltrating up-and-over the ridge to the east side of Calhoun. That closing of-the-ranks was a concern to the warriors until they realized no trap would take place. For me, that was the point-in-time the warriors felt comfortable in knowing they had the numbers big-time and they had control of the battlefield.
Warrior testimony that they were very surprised Custer would attack such a large village is proof enough to tell me the warriors knew of their great advantage in numbers of fighting men. When they realized the soldiers in the south were staying put, the outcome of the fight was set-in-stone, IMO.
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Post by benteen on Apr 14, 2019 16:36:21 GMT -6
'We are surrounded ?" Good, now we can fire in any direction. The bastards wont get away this time" Be well Semper Fi Dan
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 15, 2019 7:21:19 GMT -6
James McLaughlin, Indian Agent at Standing Rock beginning 1881 tells us that there were more than one group tracking Custer once he mounted the ridge. Aside from Wolf Thooth there were a number of others on the east side of the river tracking GAC, to include the village police. He was spotted before the Reno attack begins as Reno's advance was shielded by woods/timber along the river. Before the Reno attack Gall and others were attempting to mirror Custer's movements on the village side of the river, in the village. Once Reno began firing Gall et el went to interdict him. At this point there was consideration of fleeing. Custer was said to be heading hell bent for the lower end of the village, Ford D.
Reno, was blocked rapidly and the majority of the NA's arrayed against him returned to the village to help obviate Custer's command. These NA's got in behind him and others from the North end cut him off in his attempt to attack from the Ford D area., The folks who told McLaughlin this tale were Gall, Crow King, Mrs Spotted Tail Bull, and others. They all agree that they were surprised by Reno and that he could have had a bigger impact on the battle if he had not bailed.
Pretty good read, don't see it sited very often " My Friend the Indian."
Regards,
Tom
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Post by herosrest on Apr 15, 2019 7:37:49 GMT -6
That is precisely correct and Custer's tried and tested antics came unglued in the valley attack and unredeemable below Medicine Tail Coulee without the support of the balance of the regiment. Hostiles numbers were such that the five company force with Custer died very quickly in a hail of gunfire, arrows and tomahawks. Local superiority in numbers may have been as great as 40 to 1 against companies fixed in place by the loss of their mounts which were shot down and stampeded.
It is my view that regardless of the events in the valley and retreat from it, the five companies below Medicine Tail Coulee could have been salvaged by urgently advising Custer and his HQ, where the seven companies concentrated with Reno, were.
The condition of Reno's command could have been conveyed to Custer's from Reno Hill before it was immobilised and unable to save itself by returning across Medicine Tail's creek.
The hostiles fought and were allowed to fight a brilliant defensive offense to destroy the 7th Cavalry in detail. On 28th June 1876, the regiment was effectively destroyed and useless. Sitting Bull out-Fetterman'd Red Cloud with a brilliantly opportune strategy. Whilst it is true in sense that 7th Cavalry's attack surprised many of the hostile population, it was known that cavalry were near and the change of tactics in raiding during daytime was a surprise. That aside, the village population were up for the trouble and responded magnificently.
The five companies could have been saved with timely messaging but of course the messaging at Little Bighorn was unmitigated shambles.
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Post by montrose on Apr 15, 2019 8:19:40 GMT -6
That is precisely correct and Custer's tried and tested antics came unglued in the valley attack and unredeemable below Medicine Tail Coulee without the support of the balance of the regiment. Hostiles numbers were such that the five company force with Custer died very quickly in a hail of gunfire, arrows and tomahawks. Local superiority in numbers may have been as great as 40 to 1 against companies fixed in place by the loss of their mounts which were shot down and stampeded. It is my view that regardless of the events in the valley and retreat from it, the five companies below Medicine Tail Coulee could have been salvaged by urgently advising Custer and his HQ, where the seven companies concentrated with Reno, were. The condition of Reno's command could have been conveyed to Custer's from Reno Hill before it was immobilised and unable to save itself by returning across Medicine Tail's creek. The hostiles fought and were allowed to fight a brilliant defensive offense to destroy the 7th Cavalry in detail. On 28th June 1876, the regiment was effectively destroyed and useless. Sitting Bull out-Fetterman'd Red Cloud with a brilliantly opportune strategy. Whilst it is true in sense that 7th Cavalry's attack surprised many of the hostile population, it was known that cavalry were near and the change of tactics in raiding during daytime was a surprise. That aside, the village population were up for the trouble and responded magnificently. The five companies could have been saved with timely messaging but of course the messaging at Little Bighorn was unmitigated shambles. I never thought I would say this on these boards: Hero is right. Field grade officers provide command and control of 2 or more companies. Field grade officers are Major, Lieutenant Colonel, and Colonel. They serve in battalions, regiments, brigades as staff or commanders. The ability to manage more than 2 companies seems to be a long term weakness of 7th Cav. AT LBH, seems to be an issue anywhere CPT Benteen is not involved. Still trying to get over Hero being right.
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Post by dre859 on Apr 15, 2019 8:52:30 GMT -6
James McLaughlin, Indian Agent at Standing Rock beginning 1881 tells us that there were more than one group tracking Custer once he mounted the ridge. Aside from Wolf Thooth there were a number of others on the east side of the river tracking GAC, to include the village police. He was spotted before the Reno attack begins as Reno's advance was shielded by woods/timber along the river. Before the Reno attack Gall and others were attempting to mirror Custer's movements on the village side of the river, in the village. Once Reno began firing Gall et el went to interdict him. At this point there was consideration of fleeing. Custer was said to be heading hell bent for the lower end of the village, Ford D. ... Regards, Tom Tom, Thanks for bringing up yet another thing that has puzzled me. North is up, scale is 1:10,000. Fig. 1 shows distribution of artifacts on Luce Ridge (as best I can recreate them), connecting line, 600-yard buffer around connecting line, and what could be seen (mounted) along that line (grayed-out area is dead space). The line is about 800 yards long (two stops?). Medicine Tail Coulee (at least the south bank) is within the buffer at the extreme south. Fig. 2 is the same thing for Nye-Cartwright. Much shorter lines of sight; the ravine just southwest of the line of artifacts is only about 200 yards from the line. Fig. 3 is a potential NA route that could be consistent with the first two figures. The NAs would have been under long-range fire from Luce Ridge line/s (consistent, I believe, with an earlier post from Montrose), but the action would have been much closer from the Nye-Cartwright line. This would mean that some NAs had been stalking Custer/Keogh almost from the time they entered Medicine Tail Coulee and were basically right on top of them when they arrived at Calhoun Hill. There are obviously lots of caveats here, but it seems this might be one possibility that's consistent with the artifacts and topography. As far as where the red line started (maybe it has multiple starting points), the line entering the green buffer is about 0.85 miles non-straight-line distance) from Thompson's Ford and about 2.15 miles (non-straight-line) from Reno's second crossing. Cheers, Dwayne Fig. 1 Fig. 2. Fig. 3.
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Post by dre859 on Apr 15, 2019 9:00:04 GMT -6
You've mentioned this a few times, and I think you're eactly right. Why do you think this was the case? Was it an issue of competence, unwillingness to take initiative, presence of a "Custer Culture," being out of their depth on this particular occasion, all the above, none of the above? Cheers, Dwayne
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Post by dre859 on Apr 15, 2019 10:14:45 GMT -6
It is my view that regardless of the events in the valley and retreat from it, the five companies below Medicine Tail Coulee could have been salvaged by urgently advising Custer and his HQ, where the seven companies concentrated with Reno, were. The condition of Reno's command could have been conveyed to Custer's from Reno Hill before it was immobilised and unable to save itself by returning across Medicine Tail's creek. Agree, with the qualification, "If it were possible that a messenger could have reached Custer." From what I can tell, it seems likely there were NAs between Reno and Custer from basically the moment Reno reached his hill. Cheers, Dwayne
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